Natural Resources Committee on May 31st, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Good morning, everybody. Thank you for joining us this morning.

We are joined today, for a second time, by Quality Urban Energy Systems of Tomorrow. Mr. Cameron and Ms. Leach, thank you for coming back. You were here previously and your attendance was disrupted. We're grateful you were able to make it back.

My recollection is that you did make some opening remarks the last time. It was some time ago, so I don't know if you want to go through your presentation in its entirety again or if you want to give us a synopsis. I'll leave that entirely up to you. Then we can get to questions.

The floor is yours.

[Tonja Leach, Managing Director, Operations and Services, Quality Urban Energy Systems of Tomorrow]

Mr. Chair, good morning and thank you for inviting us back to testify. I will provide you with a quick overview of QUEST and then pass it over to my colleague, Bruce Cameron. He's a senior associate with QUEST. He'll provide you with the details of the findings of our Atlantic energy data road map research.

QUEST is the voice of the smart energy communities marketplace in Canada. We are an influencer, connector, and educator. We support all three levels of government, utilities and energy service providers, the real estate sector, and solution providers to grow the smart energy communities marketplace. Smart energy communities put in place the conditions that reduce greenhouse gas emissions, lower energy use, drive the adoption of clean technologies, enhance resilience, and foster local economic development and job creation in Canada.

I'll now pass it over to Bruce.

[Bruce Cameron, Senior Advisor and Consultant, Quality Urban Energy Systems of Tomorrow]

Thanks very much, Tonja.

Thank you, members of the committee, for the invitation to return. I think we're going to end up having more time to talk about it than we would have otherwise, so I'm quite happy to come back and speak again.

I'm just going to try to recap, rather than repeat, where we were when we started off last time, about a month ago. As general propositions, Canada is not bad at documenting what we do in the way of energy production and supply, although we're not as good about renewables as we are about traditional petroleum resources.

We're talking, though, about energy use today as being one of the major topics of energy information and energy data, and we're not nearly as good at that. There are a whole lot of reasons, one of which is that, quite frankly, energy use takes place in provinces, and the Government of Canada doesn't have as much of an overarching jurisdictional responsibility for energy use except when it fits within various policy nexus, but from an information bottom-up perspective, there's not as much of an overarching jurisdictional use there.

The provinces have been trying to fill in as best they can, and because of its fragmented nature, energy data doesn't talk to each other, particularly about use. We're actually quite good in some ways. There's a Petrinex network in western Canada where now B.C., Alberta, and Saskatchewan are all filling in collectively to one place about what happens in the way of energy production, and there have been efficiencies and things that have happened that way that are really good and driven by provincial interests. In some senses, we need more of that happening in the rest of the country on a broader agenda.

So, energy for the future, energy data for the future, it's a lot more rich. It has a lot more other things attached to it, a lot more information. It's not just about a data point. It really is all the other information you can connect to that data point, and it's linked to a whole bunch of other positive things that start giving you knowledge and real information instead of just some scattered facts.

The new drivers of energy information are all about climate change, efficiency programs, community-level accounting, and things like that, a different agenda from calculating royalties and making sure that the public interest is protected in the production of energy.

We took all these things into account when we started working with the provinces in Atlantic Canada to ask what is a road map to get to this new energy future that will start addressing the new agenda and build on existing needs for the old one. We secured a lot of advice, talked to a lot of people, and worked out a vision that really talks about an energy system, and talks about some principles that I think are really important, one of which is that society needs to make informed choices.

We need to have real solid evidence to make decisions on almost everything, whether investments, programs, or policies, and the personal information has to be protected. That's where it starts today. Almost everything that you see in the media these days that has to do with data has to do with breaches of data and privacy, and that needs to be a fundamental first principle in everything we do. If we're going to be collecting this data, it has to be protected, and consumers need to have the right to decide when they're going to disclose the information and how, within a framework of law. There are technology solutions that provide ways we can do this in a much more standard way. Governments need to work together.

All of those are principles we embedded in the road map that should be released in a couple of weeks time.

When we talk about access to data, it really is either legislative requirements that are very sensitive and protected.... Stats Canada has a very good reputation for protecting people's information. It's been at it for a long time, and has a lot of protocols in place, a lot of security and sensitivity wrapped around it. The next system, the evolution of the system has to have equal kinds of safeguards and assurance and trust of the public. If we can manage that, then we have all sorts of very rich opportunities in the private sector, in efficiency agencies, and in co-operation.

I just want to close on an observation on the federal role. After all, you are a parliamentary committee, and you're looking at it from a Canadian perspective. The first thing is that there are a number of really strong players in the energy information data world today at the federal level. Stats Canada is obvious, but I think you've also heard from others. For example, Environment Canada has a major role in collecting energy information in order to get to their greenhouse gas calculations and inventory. There's a nexus there between the two where that needs to perhaps be examined.

There's a collaborative history between the provinces and the Government of Canada through the federal, provincial, and territorial energy ministers meetings and processes, and there is an opportunity for leadership. I think there is always a national role in these things.

I'm always mindful of whose jurisdiction it is. Having worked in the Province of Nova Scotia for 20 years, I'm very sensitive to the issue of “that's my job and that's your job”, but together we can work in the way of a national job, and I think that's an important opportunity here, to collaboratively work on getting good quality energy data for good quality energy information decisions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you both very much.

Ms. Ng, you're going to start us off.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you so very much for returning. It's great to hear your perspective.

We've heard a lot from many of the witnesses who have appeared before us, some of which you have touched on, which is that there's a good collection, for example, of data on the production side, whether it's tracked through industry, through the provinces, through the NEB, and so forth. We have also been hearing that there is also data collection, as you just said, on the environmental side to help us sort of meet targets.

The one piece that I would love to hear from you about is the state of end-user data and how something like smart grids can contribute to the collection of that end-user data so that there is some sense that can be made of it. Maybe you could speak to that and share your perspective, please.

[Bruce Cameron]

You can't have a smart grid without energy information, and one of the outputs of a smart grid is energy information. It has to collect data in order to inform, even if it's an automatic decision. If we don't enable that data to be collected and used in a positive way, we've probably failed, and sometimes there are legislative impediments to the information to be used in the best way possible, and that's where governments need to examine whether they need to take action. If something is failing to happen because there's a legislative impediment, then it's your job, or it's the job of your colleagues in the provinces and territories.

Where we're seeing that today is, there are a number of jurisdictions across the country that have advanced meter infrastructure. They're collecting data, and they've all been very sensitive to this issue of privacy. Who gets to see the data? Sometimes they put in what I would call an iron fence, a moat and guns everywhere on the parapets, to make sure that nobody ever gets to see any of that information. It satisfies the public who are concerned that the data may be leaked, but if the only use that it has really is to bill you, then it isn't really living up to the opportunity. There's a way instead, I think, within that moat and that ring fence to be able to do analytical work. It takes that data, combines it with other datasets, and gets real value and meaning. In fact, Stats Canada is doing that today in other ways, but they're not getting that granular level of information.

Many of the ways we've been dealing with data can be extended to the new data and have the same standards of care and the same standards of protection of the private interest and still meet the public objectives, which are huge.

If I could just deviate for one second, Mr. Chair, I was just reviewing yesterday an article that had been in The Globe and Mail dealing with ecobee. Thirty thousand people across North America have given permission through ecobee for researchers to share their energy information on how they use energy within their homes. These kinds of things are very exciting and very positive. If we can help technology enable that kind of voluntarily giving up, as well as the general public interest work, we'll have a much better understanding of how to really manage energy systems for our own use and for everyone else.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

You're getting into the area of my next question.

We've heard loud and clear that there's a need for a national data strategy that enables public policy-makers to understand not only production but use, and the way in which the production is affecting climate change. We understand that. Would you say that equally important is the public understanding and knowledge, through this data and information, that then also helps drive changes in public behaviour?

[Bruce Cameron]

There's no question that information can be the foundation to start having a conversation about changing behaviour. It's a basis of knowing what's happening in your home, how much natural gas you're using, and how much electricity you're using. You might be using propane for some reason as well. Certainly, in many parts of the country you'd be using biomass; you'd be using wood. You can now see that if you did this, it would make a change, both in terms of your carbon footprint and in terms of your wallet or purse. Unless you have the information as to how all this comes together, you can't have the conversation about what's in it for you.

You also need all that information to actually do the social behaviour change, which is about a community perspective. All of your neighbours, getting together, have decided that they're going to try to work on some things to save and say, “Look what we've achieved.” If you don't have the information, you can't celebrate.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

We are looking to study how we might recommend a national data strategy for the country. Do you have a perspective on an independent agency that might do that in the country?

[Bruce Cameron]

When I look at the strengths of this country, I look at a whole bunch of things happening in a fragmented way. I think there needs to be some kind of group of people with clear accountability, a framework, and a requirement to do some things.

I spent a lot of time in government. The last thing I wanted anybody to ever tell me was precisely how to design something. Tell me the outcomes, and then I'll go away and figure out what works best.

I wouldn't say that it has to be an independent agency. What I would say is there needs to be a critical mass of people working somewhere inside Canada, knitting all of this together, and being the place where you can have some really good energy information discussions, guidance, advice, and ultimately even some work done. Whether it's an independent agency or not, I really don't care.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Where are our top three impediments now?

[Bruce Cameron]

The impediments now are, first off, that we're not collecting data in such a way that it can be used for multiple purposes. They're all fit for one purpose. Environment Canada collects a lot of its data from facilities for the purpose of measuring GHG emissions. It also grabs a whole bunch of other data elsewhere to go into its modelling about the balance of energy, but it seems to me that more effort needs to be made for people to agree that if you're going to collect information, you collect it in a way that it can be used for multiple purposes. That's number one.

We're really good at collecting a lot of stuff—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I'm going to have to ask you to wrap up. I'm sorry. You're out of time.

[Bruce Cameron]

That would be a very good start.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

You can incorporate numbers two and three into future answers.

Mr. Falk might give you the opportunity.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming back to committee.

For whatever amount of responsibility we need to bear for creating this opportunity for you, you're welcome. I think it has worked out very well for you to have greater input at this committee than you would have had in the past.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Bruce Cameron]

Hear, hear!

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That's a good spin, eh? I'm learning to be a politician.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I thought it was a masterful plan.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your interesting presentation. You spoke about the need and requirement to protect individual privacy. In thinking of biomass users, wind users, and solar users, how would you envision that data usage being collected? In one of your comments, which I think is in your presentation or information package here, you said we're not bad or quite good at tracking and recording data for production but not so much for usage. How would you suggest collecting the data for wind and solar energy?

[Bruce Cameron]

If you're going to look at the production of those things, there is a fair amount of reporting on individual wind farms to utilities, and then getting it from the utilities back out isn't too bad.

Biomass use at a utility scale, again, it's not bad. How you get at the use of biomass for heating a home in rural Canada is a tremendous challenge partly because of the supply, the input into it. The people in the woods who are collecting the logs to give it are not required to report today, and often come down at a level of very small supply. It's very difficult to understand exactly why you would put people through that degree of red tape for very small....

Big suppliers and big deliverers of natural gas can easily be monitored, and they can take the burden.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You also talked about different jurisdictions, some provincial and some federal. I would even suggest that some of it is municipal jurisdiction insofar as collection of data is concerned.

You also mentioned that you thought Statistics Canada has been doing a tremendous job in protecting people's privacy and providing relevant data on the information they collect. How do you think Statistics Canada could assist us with the assimilation of more national energy data and combining different industry data?

[Bruce Cameron]

The general concern about Statistics Canada is being able to get data in a timely fashion. When you look at some of their publications on energy use, for example, the data is two and three years out of date. It is very difficult, when you have that kind of a lag, to understand exactly what's going on in a rapidly changing marketplace. Some marketplaces aren't that rapidly changing, but often prices are. That's affecting use as well.

The first thing would be to step up the collection of the data and the ability to analyze it more rapidly and create energy information.

This goes back to what you need improved in the energy information system. You need a group of people who combine the engineering, technical, economic, social, and policy priorities in a sense, and really good communication skills, quite frankly. If you have everything on a spreadsheet, you could say the information is available. I believe you have the data available, but you don't really have information that can be used by people. You need all these skill sets coming together to direct projects, priorities, and to say If we're going to spend public money, here are the things we need to do. That needs to be built into the system, in addition to all the technical work that's going on today.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Do you think there's an issue of standardization in the collection of data?