Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 4th, 2018

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

That's correct.

[Anna Murray]

I can find out that exact number for you. I know it's $46 billion for North America, but I'll have to determine specifically which assets of the various funds are located just in Canada.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Right now you have a number of $46 billion for North America.

[Anna Murray]

That is correct.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

My question goes to the representatives of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

Have you done any studies with your members?

Other witnesses have told us that exporting energy efficiency is an expanding market with a lot of potential. Have you conducted a study with your members, specifically on their export potential?

[Monique Moreau]

No we have not done that yet.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Okay.

How many of your members work in the energy efficiency field?

[Monique Moreau]

Not very many.

As for technology, investment and all that, most of our members represent what you would expect to find in a business community. We go from corner stores to accountants.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Earlier, you talked about an initiative to try to encourage companies to save money. We had a representative from Loblaws before us, talking about the huge monthly savings Loblaws has made because of their facilities. The company has buildings all over Canada, of course, so it has the resources to do that. As you mentioned, that is rarely the case with small companies.

What recommendations can you give us to support small businesses?

Two weeks ago, a witness from Ontario told us that 110 people were crunching numbers and trying to improve efficiency in energy costs. Do you have any specific recommendations for us?

How can we encourage small businesses to become involved with saving energy?

[Monique Moreau]

First, we have to tell our members and entrepreneurs what is available to them. That can be done in a number of ways. They do not know the possibilities and the programs that exist. They are not aware. I feel that this it is an opportunity for governments of all levels, especially the Government of Canada, not just to put taxes on carbon and other programs, but also to let entrepreneurs know about the ways in which they can save energy in their businesses.

It may take the form of initiatives like recycling, which is relatively easy and does not require major funds. It may also be by establishing programs or plans for two or three years, allowing them to invest. They have to take advantage of the programs available, like the accelerated investment initiative that the government announced in its fall economic statement.

First and foremost, communication is most important. Our organization and our district managers are also available. The CFIB has 220 employees who knock on the doors of about 4,000 businesses per week. It's a great opportunity to try and familiarize them with the possibilities that may help them to reduce their impact on the environment.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Madam Murray, you talked about the green building certificate program that you have. You indicated that this is a program that's being promoted more and more because it does increase the value of the real estate. It increases the potential for either adding capital for equity or for selling.

Can you provide the committee with some recommendations on what we can do to support you in expanding that program?

[Anna Murray]

I'm assuming you're addressing this question to me. The first part was cut off.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Yes.

[Anna Murray]

I also want to take the opportunity to respond to your initial question.

We're managing approximately $20 billion in Canada.

In terms of the green building certification piece, some of our investors and building owners find it difficult now to justify spending the costs required to certify their buildings.

Although in downtown core areas it's table stakes to have class A and B buildings certified, it was much more popular and competitive five years ago compared to now.

I think that providing some level of incentives for buildings would be helpful, either through the development phase or the recertification phase.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I don't do this because I like doing it, but I'm going to have to interrupt you again. We're a little bit beyond time.

If you could wrap up quickly, that would be great.

[Anna Murray]

There's also something to be said for older buildings as those tend to be less energy efficient.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Perfect. Thank you.

Mr. Nicholson, you have five minutes.

[Rob Nicholson, Niagara Falls, CPC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to thank our witnesses. Your testimony here is very helpful.

Ms. Hayes, one of the things that impressed me about your testimony today was the chart which showed that your members are overwhelmingly motivated by their own views of protecting the environment as opposed to any other issues here. I think that means you're certainly moving in the right direction—or your members are—in terms of the awareness of this.

Towards the end of your testimony, you said that there are going to be barriers. One of them was the increased cost. You mentioned CPP, minimum wage and the carbon tax. Are all of these measures adding up to discourage businesses from becoming more energy efficient? Is that the point you want to make?

[Emilie Hayes]

I wouldn't say it discourages them; I just think it makes it a lot harder for our members.

It's not just the costs of federal government. We have to keep in mind that they're dealing with the costs from the municipal governments and regulations from provincial governments as well. All of these costs add up. When it's impacting a business's bottom line, it gives them less cash flow to be able to make these investments in the first place.

A lot of our members say they want to and they're doing what they can.

We're reading through survey comments right now and so many of our members are stating that they've done all that they can at this point; it's difficult for them to be able to do more.

As we mentioned, not owning your building can be very difficult to make any sort of green renovation.

[Rob Nicholson]

This has been very helpful to us, quite frankly, with respect to the carbon tax. As you know, there's been quite a bit of discussion in Parliament concerning that. That was very helpful, as well.

One of the things I noticed on the chart is what drives businesses. One of them was not financial incentives. If I remember correctly, it was about 13%. It was near the bottom.

[Emilie Hayes]

It wasn't financial incentives; it was the imposition of more regulations and taxation.

[Rob Nicholson]

Okay, it was taxation.

[Emilie Hayes]

It really is personal views that drive them to do more. For them it is important. They recognize that climate change is real. They recognize that it does have an impact on their business and their bottom line. They want to do something.

We read in our members' comments that a lot of people just do it because they want to leave a better planet for their children and grandchildren.

[Rob Nicholson]

That's good. That came through.

With respect to landlords.... That was one of the challenges you had. There are landlord associations and groups across Canada.

Does your group ever sit down and meet with them or do you want your members to do this on an individual basis? Is there anything organized in terms of letting them know that's one of the ways in which we can help the environment?

[Monique Moreau]

We're in discussions with groups like the Canadian Home Builders' Association, the realtors, and there are other associations that we discuss this with, occasionally.

I think that what you're suggesting—to do something wholesale to make it easier—is the best approach. Asking an individual business to negotiate with their landlord also constrains the month or period of time in which they can do that. If their lease is not up for renewal for another five to seven years, for example, or even on a shorter term basis of three to five years, you're constraining improvements that could be happening that day, year or month.

I think that a wholesale approach, if you will, would expedite that process.