Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 6th, 2018

[Ragui Barsoum]

I think it's tremendously important. As I mentioned, I've seen many boiler or chiller replacements where they're focusing on increasing the efficiency of that specific component, but if you don't take a wider view, you're not going to get systems harmonized. You need to have a wider view. Even if you're considering replacing that piece of equipment, how does that affect the rest of the systems and what other opportunities are available so that you could make a change even to that replacement, to that strategy?

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Are you finding that in older commercial-style buildings—I presume you're mostly dealing with commercial or industrial-style buildings—it's still economically feasible to upgrade their systems to more energy-efficient, newer technology energy-use systems, or is there more of an advantage in new construction?

[Jim Lord]

It's always easier in new construction, but new construction will not get us to where we need to be, because it's such a small percentage of the market. It's harder in existing buildings, and....

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Is the construction of older buildings compatible with some of the newer technology when you're looking at headers and wall construction and things like that? Does it make sense to upgrade, or is it more costly to do it and less cost-effective?

[Ragui Barsoum]

It depends on the building. From my experience, it's a situation on a one-by-one basis. I've been involved in many older buildings that were compatible with variable refrigerant flow systems, just because of the way they were constructed, and others not.

[Jim Lord]

We've seen existing buildings dramatically increase their energy efficiency as well. It can happen. It can work.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You talked a bit about tradespeople and construction people who are required to build, maintain and operate these systems, and your challenges of getting a balance of the right kind of people. Mr. Serré was asking questions about the workforce that's available to work with these new systems.

Earlier in the week we had the Prime Minister running around, saying how horrible construction workers are. What impact do you think that will have on people considering getting into the trades and into the construction industry?

[Jim Lord]

I have no comment on that. I think as people are looking at what they want to do career-wise, we will need good construction workers and more technological construction workers than before.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I spoke in my riding on Monday about some of those comments with some of the constituents who work in construction and the trades industry and do you know what? They don't find they're in a position that's being honoured and recognized for the expertise, the skill and the professionalism that they build, when you have a Prime Minister who talks about how terrible they are for our community.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Falk, I am going to have to raise the issue of relevance. I don't know what this has to do with energy efficiency, or if it has anything to do with this. If you can tie it into what these gentlemen are here to talk about, I will appreciate that.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

My comments are out of a concern for employment in your industry, for people who are looking to get into construction and the trades. When you have the Prime Minister telling them they're bad for a community, I'm wondering if you think that's going to have a negative impact. We need people in the trades industry. We've heard from previous witnesses at committee that attracting people into the business and getting qualified tradespeople who can do the installation or construct the buildings is a real challenge in the energy efficiency industry.

[Jim Lord]

Certainly, we need qualified tradespeople and we need to encourage courses at community colleges and other institutions that will help us bring forward our next round of tradespeople so we can keep building.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Would it be an honourable trade that people should still consider?

[Jim Lord]

Definitely.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Good, okay. I would think so, too.

When you're installing or designing systems and you're looking at the cost of the system, what kind of return on investment are you typically looking for or trying to benchmark?

[Jim Lord]

It depends on the system.

[Ragui Barsoum]

We see a wide variety. When we go through a building and make recommendations, there's a wide range. It's not uncommon to see a significant number that are two- to five-year simple payback.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

When you present that prospect to potential customers, is that something that's attractive enough for them that they're willing to make the investment?

[Jim Lord]

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. It depends on their capital situation and what they want to do with the asset in the long term. Somebody might want to make it energy efficient so that they can sell it, or they might want to make it energy efficient so that they can reduce operating costs over the long term to get higher net rents. It really depends on the motivation.

We're there to take that raw number and help them to use that in the business case for what they need done or if they need financing for it. There are different options for them to—

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Right, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

We're going to have to stop there, Mr. Falk. We're a bit over time.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you for being here today.

I'm going to bring it back initially to talk about the training aspect. I'm wondering if you have any examples of good programs across Canada in colleges. I have one in my own college in Penticton where I live. Okanagan College has a sustainable construction management technology diploma. They have one of Canada's most environmentally friendly buildings, you might call it, very high-tech, as you say, with a lot of computer monitoring going on.

Are there any colleges that you find are doing a good job that could be models for this across Canada?

[Jim Lord]

We're not deep into the educational standpoint, but we do see graduates from a variety of programs who are well qualified to move into the industry. It's great that those courses are being developed.

I know Humber College is working on a new program that we're helping them with, giving them a little bit of advice there. It's good that they're reaching out to industry, and I think that's probably common across all colleges to figure out what skills are needed so that they can produce graduates who will be able to find jobs.