Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 26th, 2019

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Thank you for bringing that up. I'm not entirely familiar with the specifics of that agreement, but it looks like they're organizing themselves around that whole concept.

If you look at Treaty 8, it doesn't encompass all of the Treaty 8 area, because Treaty 8 was put into place before Alberta and Saskatchewan were provinces. Alberta and Saskatchewan were part of the Northwest Territories at that time.

There are pre-existing rights that need to be recognized. In other words, you might want to set up a protocol with the whole treaty area, which would now include present-day B.C., the Northwest Territories, part of Alberta and Saskatchewan. We'd welcome that because the tar sands development is in Treaty 8. We don't benefit from it. I won't get into all those details, but we'd be really eager to talk about developing a plan where we could look at getting rid of the tailings ponds.

In this day and age, 2019, there shouldn't be tailings ponds, because they leach into the environment, and they come north. It's proven that there are toxic chemicals like arsenic in the watershed that affect us and go all the way to the Beaufort Sea, which goes into international waters.

We would talk about that. We would talk about resource revenue sharing and how to look at international markets. That is an example and I encourage you to continue looking at it.

Thank you.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

If you familiarize yourself with it and come up with any additional commentary on whether or not it's a good model or a bad model for resource reclamation projects, we'd love to hear your further thoughts.

Ms. Mack, there's a lot in the news lately, with the new President, about the potential for oil and gas development off the north coast of Alaska. I'm wondering to what extent your group is involved and consulted with respect to that type of development.

[Dr. Liza Mack]

Well, we are not located there. It wouldn't be our indigenous group that you would need to speak to about that, and I wouldn't feel comfortable talking about it. I think that is something you would need to speak to the Inupiat, the Inuit Circumpolar Council, or possibly the North Slope Borough. They are organizations located there that would be better suited to talk about this, as would the Gwich'in Council International, as they are also involved in those conversations.

There was just a hearing here in Anchorage and Fairbanks, and I think this drew a lot of attention and a lot of opposition and people who were there to speak in support of that.

I don't know if you can see over my shoulder, but the map is of Alaska. The area that our organization represents in Alaska goes all the way to Russia. I had mentioned the outer continental shelf when we were talking about resource development. We would certainly expect to be spoken to about those kinds of things and involved in that dialogue. However, the dialogue you're mentioning is something I am not familiar with. It's kind of out of the scope of what we are involved in.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

You mentioned the Inuit Circumpolar Council. Chief Erasmus, you're part of that. To what extent is your organization aware of consultations with indigenous folks on Arctic exploration and drilling and the protocols around it?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

The Arctic Council doesn't get specifically involved in any of that. Those are more domestic matters, like what we're involved in here. We are able to sit down and develop ways to proceed.

I'm thinking about what you said earlier about maybe giving you some examples. Mr. Chair, we could compile some of our thoughts on paper, and present that to you, so that you have that when you compile your final study, and so on. We can come back with some ideas on how you might want to approach all of this.

Thank you.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I think that would be extremely helpful.

I have a final question for Ms. Mack.

I was just taking some notes. I was trying to glean some best practices in indigenous consultation. If there's something I don't catch here in this little list, maybe you can add to it.

My list includes: early engagement; determine whether a community wants a project; determine whether the community believes that the activity is appropriate; look beyond topographical maps to access indigenous knowledge about the territory itself; make sure the process includes meaningful dialogue, and that people are prepared to speak in a two-way conversation about the project; be cognizant of the fact that the capacity of communities in time, money or talent isn't always there, so you need to offer support in one or more of those areas, or it's not going to be a good consultation. The last note I had was that the timing of the consultation is important, because people are only going to be available in their off-season. When they are working, they're not going to be available to be consulted.

Is there something you would like to add to that short list I put together from your presentation?

[Dr. Liza Mack]

No, I think that sums it up very well. I think that does a good job of summarizing the things I was trying get across here.

Yes, thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Good.

Mr. Whalen, you're right on time, too.

Mr. Schmale, you have five minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing today on this very important study.

Ms. Mack, we are discussing the various ways we can include all people in this discussion. I believe in Alaska, if my research is correct, there's an industry-run advisory council that helps to deal with these types of resource projects.

Are you aware of anything like that?

[Dr. Liza Mack]

Do you mean a state-run or indigenous-run advisory council?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes, that is correct.

[Dr. Liza Mack]

No, I'm not familiar with anything like that.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

There is nothing that is industry-run? No? Okay.

I want to pick up where Mr. Cannings left off. I don't think you had a chance to respond to his question about how, when we're talking about land use, the nations or communities are able to have a say. I have the same question that he asked.

What happens when different communities disagree on a project or a path forward? How does it get resolved if there are communities pushing for a project and a few that say no?

[Dr. Liza Mack]

It's time. I think you need to take the time to communicate with people. Have those really important, hard discussions. Sometimes, that's what it takes. It's not always comfortable. It's not always easy. Make sure you spend time communicating and listening to those multiple stakeholders, the community leaders and also to the people who are going to be affected by these resource projects. This is important. “Affected” is not a negative word. It can be positive or negative. Make sure you're taking the time to listen, and to go to people where they are, so you can engage with them in a way that's meaningful to them.

I think the framework that you set up is important. Every project is going to be different. Some of the differing views are going to be harder or easier to discuss, depending what you're talking about. My advice would be to make sure you give yourself enough time and resources to listen to the people who are going to be affected by any one project.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I do agree on meaningful consultation. What I'm really trying to understand and wrap my head around is if you have a project, say there are 31 communities that agree with this project and there are a few that don't—fewer than 31, say fewer than five, for example—how do we move forward? How do we say, “Look, the vast majority are in favour of this project?” Say it's a pipeline, for example, and the vast majority are in favour of it, especially the ones who are impacted by that pipeline. How do we move forward with that or do we move forward at all? Who gets the veto? How does that work?

[Dr. Liza Mack]

You can't say. There's not a blanket answer for that.

One way forward that I would consider is maybe to take the people who do agree with it and have them go and speak to the people who oppose it to find out why, or what, or whether or not they're ever going to change their minds. Sometimes they won't, and that just has to also be acceptable.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay, I get what you're saying. I'm just trying to get to how we move past that.

Say you have a major resource project worth billions and billions of dollars, and it could supply jobs and opportunity for first nations communities, the province, or the States in your case, or the country as a whole, but there are, in some cases, small groups that oppose it, that may or may not be affected on the actual path of—since we used a pipeline—the pipeline. I just don't know how we move forward with it other than saying, “Well, this project doesn't go forward, and the resource stays in the ground.” I'm just looking to you for maybe a suggestion or two as to how we can move this forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

You're going to have to look to them a little bit later, because you're out of time.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Already?

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Already. I'm sorry.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay. Can she answer?

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I'm mindful of the motion, that's all. You know I'm not averse to giving people extra time, but I don't want to go over. That's all.

Mr. Tan.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Witnesses, I have a couple of questions for both of you.

Our committee has heard from previous witnesses that more and more indigenous communities have created so-called indigenous economic development corporations, also called EDCs, which were mentioned briefly in your presentation, Ms. Mack. What is your view of EDCs? Do you think an EDC can be a major economic driver in indigenous communities? How effective are these corporations?

[Dr. Liza Mack]

Well, I think it's a bit more complex than just answering whether or not economic development corporations can be effective. The corporations that were started in Alaska were actually started as part of the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act which passed in 1971, and so we all, by default, became part owners in the land, as shareholders. It certainly changed the landscape of Alaska. It took a lot of our resources from being community-driven resources to being a fiduciary responsibility to a smaller portion of our population.

That being said, there are varying degrees of what “success” means. Some people and some corporations do have larger dividends, and they've been able to establish a bunch of infrastructure within their communities. Other ones have not been as successful. In some ways, that measurement of success we're talking about is very arbitrary. For one group, it might be one thing, and for another group, it might be something else.

I think there are ways that this has been good, and I think it's arguable that this isn't the right way. To go back to Mr. Schmale's question, it really depends on who you're talking to and what the goals are. That, really, is something else I brought up before: understanding what the goals of a project are in order to make sure the community buy-in is there and understanding what it does for the people who are going to be affected.

I do think that economic development is important in our communities. We have very few resources outside of our natural resources, and so using them in a way that is culturally appropriate and that also ensures we can remain in our landscape is very important. Striking a balance, I think, is certainly what we should keep in mind.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you.

Chief, do you want to add something?