Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

Mr. Harvey, we have a few seconds left in your time, but we might have gone over a bit, so I may come back to you.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

We're in the five-minute round now, so people are going to have to be a bit more efficient with the use of their words.

Mrs. Stubbs.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll speak fast.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today on such short notice. I really appreciate it.

Before I turn to questions related to your mandate letter, I want to commend you on your recognition that Canadian mining is recognized as a world leader in sustainable development and innovation, but I want to point out for the record that so is Canada's oil and gas industry. Of course, for decades, both our technology and innovation and our regulatory best practices particularly in Alberta have been exported and adopted in other oil-producing regions around the world. Those technologies have served to enhance energy development while minimizing the environmental footprint and creating jobs and increasing government revenue, and the biggest investors and developers of alternative and renewable energies are, of course, conventional oil and gas developers. So those efforts aren't mutually exclusive.

As you mentioned earlier, your mandate letter from the Prime Minister did say that your overarching goal will be to “ensure that our resource sector remains a source of jobs, prosperity, and opportunity.”

As you know, the oil industry lost 100,000 jobs by the end of 2015, and just last month alone, Alberta lost 22,000 full-time jobs. So people in my rural Alberta and responsibly developed resource-based riding are hurting. They're losing their jobs. They're losing their homes. It's a crisis in Alberta and a crisis in Lakeland, and times are becoming desperate for many. My riding and my province, of course, contribute so much to all of Canada, in large part because of the energy development there.

We know and we all acknowledge that Canada's investment climate is influenced by multiple factors, and we recognize that the downturn in the energy sector is being driven primarily by low global oil prices and global economic crises, but a major impact, of course, is government policy and how that either exacerbates or mitigates those external factors.

In your opening comments, you mentioned a transitional approach, which is by nature uncertain and unstable. The changes you've announced to the regulatory approval process are either not fleshed out in detail or are the ones we know for sure are causing confusion, and they will also add costs and delay and time. Like all sectors, Canada's energy industry requires certainty, predictability and stability from government. Your recently announced interim measures and your indications that more may be coming only increase ambiguity, uncertainty, and instability, and ultimately the cost is jobs are lost. I just wonder how soon Canadians can expect the government to clarify its regulatory requirements in order to ensure that our resource sector remains, as noted in your mandate letter, a source of jobs, prosperity, and opportunity.

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I want first to acknowledge the innovation within Alberta. People forget that it was actually innovation that led to the development of the oil sands in the first place, and no one on the other side of the House, in questions to me or, as far as I know, to anybody else, has brought up the work of COSIA, the Canadian Oil Sands Innovation Alliance, which is this group of leaders within the oil and gas sector in Alberta who have joined together and have put aside competitive pressures. These are people who are in the same business, competing for the same markets, who are working together, with considerable R and D investment, in order to assist in the transition that everybody knows is a reality internationally and within Canada itself.

I have a lot of faith in the entrepreneurship of Albertans and of Canadians. They've demonstrated it before and they continue to demonstrate it now. We will be making important investments in green technology. It's a campaign platform commitment. We will be working with industry, sector by sector. We'll certainly be working with these entrepreneurs and innovators in Alberta. By the way, people shouldn't forget that when the NDP Premier of Alberta announced her climate change plan, she was flanked by four leaders within the oil and gas sector in Alberta, to the surprise of some, and an indigenous leader. You would think that much other good could come of that kind of sectoral, indigenous, and political movement at the same time and in a similar direction.

Clarity in the principles is what we will do in the interim process, and I am convinced that the capacity of the sector to adapt to international and domestic changes in policy and in commodity prices will position us very well internationally to take advantage of those changes as they develop.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Tan, for five minutes.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thanks, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for coming to our meeting.

I'm a new member. Some of the members, like me, are new members of the committee, so we are very keen to learn more details about the government's policy and positions. I see that my colleagues know their local issues very well. I have a master's degree and a Ph.D. from the U of T Pulp and Paper Centre. I worked in the pulp and paper area briefly, and then worked in our nuclear industry for 10 years, so I may have some questions to ask you in the future.

As just mentioned by the honourable member, the Government of Canada has introduced the five interim principles to guide its decision-making on the major natural resources projects until there's an environmental process in place.

How is the Government of Canada restoring the public trust in the way Canada reviews and assesses major natural resource projects?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

It is doing it by having important conversations with communities that are affected by projects, and by understanding the impact of those projects on indigenous practices and indigenous ways.

It's been remarkable as I travel across the country talking to people in the sector and people within indigenous communities and in other communities. No one has really reached out to them before. It is not always a part of a regulator's mandate to reach out. But if we don't reach out, between regulators and governments, to have these kinds of conversations that matter to people, it's very unlikely that we're going to have a successful result.

Personally, Mr. Chair, I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic mostly because of the kind of response and energy I have seen in these roundtables where indigenous leaders, environmentalists, and business leaders are sitting around the same table at the same time talking about the same thing, and in large measure, are ending up at the same place. It is our job to create a set of conditions where that can happen, which I think is the best way to find ways of moving our natural resources sustainably.

The principles will underpin that. Public confidence will be earned by the living-out of these principles by the regulator, by community leaders, and by government. It's our hope that at the end of the process, we'll end up at a better place than we are coming from.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Minister, I have my eye on the clock here. I understand that you have to be out of here by 4:30 fairly sharp.

Mr. Barlow, you might not get all of your five minutes, but you'll get close to it.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you. I'll speak quickly.

Thank you again, Minister, for coming so quickly to our meeting. I really do appreciate that. I want to clarify a couple of things.

You've said that there's been no consultation between the NEB and first nations. There were close to 1,000 meetings on the northern gateway alone. With energy east, there have been close to 500 consultation meetings. I just wanted to clarify that. It's a little disingenuous to say that there have been no consultations on that.

You talked about the NDP government in Alberta. If you were to speak to the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers and their members about what they felt about that carbon tax in Alberta, it would be a very different answer than what you may think you're getting.

I was really happy to hear you talk about the courage of a government to make what may seem to be an unpopular decision at the time. We've been talking a lot about Alberta and Saskatchewan, but we also have to talk about Atlantic Canada, the impact that the energy downturn has had across Canada.

I don't profess to say that a government can control oil prices, but it can control or mitigate the atmosphere that goes around with that. That includes the confidence for the private sector to invest in that sector.

What really concerned me with the Prime Minister and yourself is that when you've been asked, for example, if the energy east or the Trans Mountain pipeline passes the National Energy Board guidelines and review, you won't commit to it. You talked about the courage to make a decision. You will never get consensus on these types of projects, whether it's a waste-water treatment plant or a pipeline.

Why will you not commit to support the energy east and Trans Mountain pipelines, those kinds of projects, if they pass the National Energy Board criteria?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I don't profess to have more than the average dollop of courage, but I can tell you when these decisions are made, not everybody is going to love them.

When I look across the chamber and hear the questions that are posed to us about these projects, never mind about a pan-Canadian framework for climate change, never mind about reforming the regulator, but just about these projects, they are generating a lot of emotion and a lot of division. Politicians of all stripes and from all levels of government are weighing in to express their passionately held views.

If they have the right opportunities to express those passionately held views, then ultimately, you're going to have to hold us accountable for how we assess all of that, because decisions will be made.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I have almost no time. I appreciate that's a good answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

He's still answering the question. I think you should let him finish.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I know. I get that and I appreciate it.

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Go ahead.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

You kind of answered it and that's great.

Last, you talked about the importance of having that partnership with Mexico and the United States, which I think is fantastic. I appreciate your getting to work on that. My concern is, has there been discussion of the fact that the United States has lifted its export bans? It is not talking about a national tax on carbon, but we are. For the producers that we've spoken with, this puts us at a very significant competitive disadvantage. Is that going to be a topic for your discussions?

If we aren't going to be talking about a tax on carbon, is this going to be something that's done with the continental partnership?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

We understand the importance of the competitive environment. We understand that Canada is an international player and an important one in the energy sector and that we have to be mindful of our national competitive position not only in energy, but all over the place.

For 16 years I was president of the Business Council of Manitoba. Every day we talked about Manitoba's competitiveness. Every day I learned from our province's leading entrepreneurs and risk-takers about the importance of certainty in the business climate. Competitiveness was driving almost everything that we recommended to governments, federal and provincial.

I believe as a member of Parliament, now as Minister of Natural Resources, that Canada's competitive position in an ever-changing international market is absolutely vital. I recognize that and I recognize its importance.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Minister, thank you very much. I want to say again how much we appreciate your taking the time to be here today. As a new committee with a new mandate and with a lot of brand new members, this was a meaningful discussion and we're very grateful for your time.

Mr. Hamilton, thank you for coming out today and sitting here very patiently.

We look forward to your coming back at future dates. You're always welcome, Minister, any time you can attend, and we know we'll see you in March. We'll firm up the date specifically. Thank you again.

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Could I take 10 seconds to say that I am also so pleased with the respectful tone that I have developed with the critics. I think that Canadians appreciate it and I think we have a responsibility to ensure it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

We're going to suspend the meeting for a couple of minutes to go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]