Evidence of meeting #28 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Vic Pakalnis  President and Chief Executive Officer, MIRARCO Mining Innovation
Mike McDougall  President, Klondike Placer Miners' Association
Jonas Smith  Executive Director, Klondike Placer Miners' Association
Harold Gibson  Professor and Metal Earth Director, Mineral Exploration Research Centre, Laurentian University, As an Individual

8:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Good morning, everybody. I call this meeting to order. I'm going to be very brief in my introductions this morning because we had to move up the start time of the meeting from 8:45 to 8:30 because we need to be out of here before 9:45. I appreciate everybody's co-operation in getting started early and I thank all of the witnesses for joining us this morning.

Mr. Pakalnis is from MIRARCO Mining Innovation, and we have two witnesses from the Klondike Placer Miners' Association, who I know made great efforts to get here. We're very grateful for that. Mr. Gibson is from Laurentian University. Each group will have up to 10 minutes to present, and then we're going to open the floor to questions.

With no further ado, we'll start with Mr. Pakalnis.

8:30 a.m.

Vic Pakalnis President and Chief Executive Officer, MIRARCO Mining Innovation

Good day, bonjour, Mr. Chair and honourable members. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the urgent matters confronting the mining industry in Canada. There are going to be three areas, which I will develop in my presentation, that I would like you to consider. The first one is the government's role in supporting one of Canada's key economic drivers. The second one is the role of first nations in the mining industy, and the third one is the position of the Ring of Fire on the national stage.

Before I expand on these recommendations to the parliamentary committee, I would like to give you some background. Every speaker who appears before you on this subject will have a unique perspective. My perspective is based on over 60 years in the mining industry. I know you're thinking I look pretty good for a guy of 80, but let me explain. I was born in the gold mining town of Malartic, Quebec. My father was the chief mining engineer for a dozen mines up there, and also in Ontario and British Columbia. My earliest memories are of prospecting in the bush on his shoulders and doing summer jobs in the various facets of the mining industry. My brother is a mining engineer. It's in our blood. It's no surprise that I chose mining engineering as my career path.

I have worked for many of the major mining companies, such as Kerr Addison, Inco, Iron Ore Company of Canada, and Falconbridge. I have spent the bulk of my professional life in the Ontario public service. I was the chief mining engineer for the Province of Ontario. I've held various executive positions within the Ontario Ministry of Labour, and I've served all three political parties. I've taught in the school of policy studies at Queen's University, as well as in the Buchan department of mining as the Kinross professor of mining and sustainability. I am presently the president and CEO of MIRARCO Mining Innovation in Sudbury and the associate vice-president of mining innovation and technology at Laurentian University.

Why have I told you so much about myself? I want you to know that my perspective is broad. I have the public sector experience, as well as industry and academic experience. I feel very strongly about the importance of mining to Canada, not just its past but more importantly its future. I hope that during the question period today you'll ask me questions about the mining industry, mining research, and public policy. I just attended the World Mining Congress in Rio last week, and what's happening in the rest of the world might be of interest to you, as well.

Mining research in particular in Canada is in grave danger. We were once the best in the world, but no longer. The decrease in investment dollars in mining research demonstrates this dramatically. Australia invests over $2.7 billion in mining research and innovation, while Canada invests about $550 million. The Canadian Chamber of Commerce report in 2013 offered recommendations that deserve more attention and more consideration than they received at that time. It's not too late to implement them, as well.

There needs to be a harmonization of federal, provincial, and territorial regulations, and incentives for research and innovation. The slides that are being translated, which should be available to you in the package later this week, contain excerpts from a KPMG report to rationalize mining research and innovation in Ontario. I believe this report needs to be supplemented by the inclusion of a federal component to assist all provinces and territories to maximize our efforts in research, innovation, and commercialization. Years ago, Canada negotiated mineral development agreements with each province and territory. In the absence of a national consensus, the federal government may wish to bring these back. We should also use policy instruments, such as the highly successful Canada-Ontario collaborative public service agreements, which were negotiated very quickly in the past.

Supporting the mining sector in Canada is not a partisan issue. It's important to our economy and our jobs, particularly in the north. Our world standing as a mining country will be enhanced.

I want to mention a couple of facts here. The World Economic Forum listed Canada's financial and banking system as number one in the world. We're also number one in post-secondary graduates, but we're 26th in innovation. We clearly have the resources and the educated population, but we're missing the target to put the innovative spark back into mining.

Toronto is the mining financial capital of the world. Over 60% of all international deals are made on Bay Street. We need to protect and grow this position, and in addition, we need to promote and support our mining suppliers and service companies that do work around the world.

We need world-class research and development to support our mining industry, and to provide highly qualified persons and innovations that will make our industry the safest, most productive, and most environmentally sustainable industry in the world. We need a coordinated mining research and innovative strategy to maintain our position on the world stage.

I'm going to turn briefly to the Ring of Fire in the James Bay lowlands of northern Ontario. It has been estimated to be worth over $60 billion. There's another Sudbury Basin sitting up there, maybe two, and it's just waiting to be developed.

The Ontario Chamber of Commerce estimates it would sustain 5,500 jobs permanently, and of course, the construction phase would be a whole lot more. I believe it's much more, and I would like you to consider the Canadian Chamber of Commerce resolution that just came out a couple of weeks ago to make the Ring of Fire a national priority. It contains copper, nickel, zinc, platinum, palladium, uranium, and gold, along with the largest deposit of chromite in North America. Chromite is a major constituent of stainless steel.

Finally, the first nations people of this country need a strong economic base in order to develop their full potential. In particular, we need programs in all mining schools, at universities and community colleges, to provide aboriginal access to science and engineering. There are some programs, Manitoba, Queen's, but every mining school should have these programs and should be encouraging them.

MIRARCO Mining Innovation at Laurentian University is proud to have graduated the only first nations Ph.D. mining engineer in Canada last year. We're proud of it, but we should have dozens graduating across this country. We should have dozens in graduate programs, and more importantly, hundreds at the undergraduate level.

The mining sector employs more first nations people than any other sector in Canada. First nations people make up about 10% of our workforce. It's one of the only areas where we actually beat the Australians. They're at 6%. My feeling is that we could get it to 20% if we had the will and the resources to do that.

Thank you for your attention and for acting on behalf of a great industry that is so important to the economy of this country. We are in a downturn at this present time. I've been through five of these downturns. The mining industry is a cyclical kind of industry and it has been a lot worse. I've survived when there were 20% interest rates, if you recall, in the eighties. We'll get through this but unless we invest in this industry, we won't be there for the boom times.

Here are three recommendations I urge you not only to consider but to act on. First, recognize and support mining as the key economic driver for Canada's economy. I believe that we can contribute even more than we have to date at 4%. I'm sure that we can get it to 8% by 2030. Second, enable first nations to benefit from better educational access to science, engineering, and management. We need to double the first nations participation rates in the mining labour force from 10% to 20% by 2020. Finally, we recommend making the Ring of Fire a national priority.

Thank you very much for your attention and I look forward to your questions.

8:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Mr. McDougall.

8:40 a.m.

Mike McDougall President, Klondike Placer Miners' Association

Mr. Chair, honourable members, thank you for the opportunity to speak here today.

My name is Mike McDougall. I'm the president of the Klondike Placer Miners' Association. With me is Jonas Smith, our executive director.

Our organization represents approximately 160 family owned and operated placer mines in the Yukon territory and an industry upon which the modern Yukon was founded. I'm a multi-generational placer miner. My father was a placer miner. My wife, of course, is with me in the operation, and so are our children.

Since the days of the great Klondike gold rush, our industry has consistently provided a solid foundation for Yukon's economy. We've delivered employment opportunities for Yukoners and we generated tax revenue for government. Unlike many Canadians in the resource sector this year, many of our members have had a good season primarily due to a low Canadian dollar and a reasonable U.S. dollar price for gold. However, the current low oil prices have also played a significant role as the placer industry consumes a considerable amount of fossil fuels.

Now a brief note about placer mining. The business of placer mining is to recover gold that is free in gravels, and the gold has been placed in those gravels by natural processes over many millennia.

Miners use heavy equipment to remove the overburden and we process the underlying gravels to recover the gold. Gold is separated from the gravels by using water and gravity methods alone. We're significant users of diesel fuel in our processes not only for our heavy equipment but also to run the generators, power our camps and places where we prepare food for our families, but also to enjoy hot showers sometimes after a day in the pit. Solar and micro-hydro options are utilized where possible, but there's currently no alternative, economic or otherwise, that could displace the fossil fuels from our industry.

We're very concerned about the potential detrimental effects a carbon tax would have on our industry and on the economy of Yukon.

We support initiatives to promote efficiency and innovation, but making our cost of living and doing business more expensively will not reduce our consumption of fossil fuel. It will just make it harder to provide for our families and to contribute economic opportunities to our communities. If the federal government is truly interested in reducing emissions, we would like to see a focus on fewer financially punitive measures to encourage increased efficiency and reduce consumption.

Canada and Yukon are blessed with an abundance of natural resources, including our human resources. Our land has endowed us with raw materials that are sought after across the globe. We have the ethical and environmental workplace standards as well as the ingenuity to be world leaders in responsible resource extraction. Our placer industry has developed and incorporated cutting-edge technologies and environmental reclamation techniques as it has evolved over the last century.

We would like to see our government utilize tax cuts as opposed to tax increases as a means to incentivize further improvements. Programs such as educational opportunities to teach miners about new technologies and access to low-interest loans to take advantage of such technologies, or to upgrade to more efficient equipment, would all be options that we would like to see explored.

Almost a half of all first nation self-government treaties in Canada are with the Yukon first nations. This creates a unique set of opportunities for the first nations involvement in resource development in Yukon. First nations citizens are fully integrated into our workforce, in our communities, and really in our families as well. Their participation in resource development is also enshrined in Yukon's environmental assessment process, which is defined in the land claims agreements.

This legislation, the Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Act, YESAA, came into force in 2003. YESAA defines much of how the placer industry's operations are assessed for impacts and how these impacts are mitigated. Placer mining is the single-largest client of the Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board.

In 2015, the former Conservative government passed amendments to YESAA that were intended to address issues with the assessment process that have compounded since its inception in 2003. However, due to a lawsuit resulting from failure to properly consult first nations, our Yukon member of Parliament, the Honourable Larry Bagnell, has campaigned successfully to rescind them, and Bill C-17 is currently awaiting second reading in the House of Commons.

To be clear, the KPMA respects and fully supports the Yukon first nations' position to be meaningfully and adequately involved in the consultation process. However, what was lost in the process and the politics is the pressing need for these changes.

Issues such as costly and time-consuming reassessments for unchanged projects, inconsistency and lack of accountability between designated offices, and a lack of clear timelines all leave our industry with uncertainty. The amendments were meant to bring YESAA into line with the other Canadian jurisdictions, provide certainty for investment, and allow the Yukon to be competitive. As the government is now prepared to amend this legislation once again, we would like to see these issues addressed in the amended bill.

The federal government has heard the concerns of the first nations. As the number one client and end-user of the YESAA process, the KPMA expects that government will engage with us prior to finalizing any amendments.

I would like to thank all honourable members again for the opportunity to speak today. I look forward to expanding on my comments in responding to any questions you may have.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you, Mr. McDougall.

Mr. Smith, are you going to add anything now?

8:45 a.m.

Jonas Smith Executive Director, Klondike Placer Miners' Association

No, thank you, Mr. Chair.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Mr. Gibson, I'll turn the floor over to you.

8:45 a.m.

Professor Harold Gibson Professor and Metal Earth Director, Mineral Exploration Research Centre, Laurentian University, As an Individual

Good morning, bonjour. Mr. Chair, honourable members, thank you for this opportunity to speak on the challenges facing the mining industry in Canada.

I will focus on exploration, the process of discovering the new resources required to build Canada's new mines, and on the research tools that are required to provide for exploration and discovery. Exploration is the scientific R and D component and first phase of a sustainable mining cycle, which starts with exploration, then development, mining, and reclamation. During each phase, environmental concerns are first and foremost.

I'll first present some significant facts about exploration, the mining industry, and research in Canada. I'll present some of the challenges. Then I'll make some recommendations for your consideration.

To tell you a little about myself, I was born in the north, in Sudbury. I was employed by major and junior mining companies for 10 years, where I worked with an exploration team across Canada and globally. I joined Laurentian University in 1990. I'm the director of Laurentian's mineral exploration research centre, or MERC. I'm also a director of metal earth, a new $104-million research project supported by the Canada first research excellence fund. Metal earth is the largest exploration research initiative in Canada ever. It will transform how we explore for metals.

With regard to some facts, a healthy mining industry is essential to Canada. Exploration is essential to a healthy mining industry. Without exploration, there will be no new resources, no mining, no sustainable northern development. Exploration is key.

Mineral resources are essential to Canada, comprising about 18% of our exports and about 4% of our GDP. Mining is, and will continue to be, a driver of the Canadian economy. It is the only real economic driver for Canada's far north development.

The mining industry, as I said, is the largest employer of first nations people in Canada. The exploration sector is often the first opportunity for first nation communities to interact with the mining sector.

Historically, exploration research in Canada has been the of the highest quality and excellence, but it is fragmented, poorly funded, and distributed throughout the university system. In Australia, mineral exploration research over the past two decades has been focused by their government to key university research centres, allowing them to tackle the big science questions, the big challenges facing the mining industry. Canada has now slipped behind Australia, but hopefully not for long.

With regard to some challenges, I'll refer to graphs that you have in the handout.

The decline in Canadian metal resources is a threat to global sustainability and security. Since 1980, the most dramatic decline has been in lead, 97%; zinc and nickel, 82%; silver, 80%; and copper, 36%. Virtually all of the zinc and lead that is mined is used for electric cars and anodizing, rust-proofing. Essentially, they're green metals. There's been no new discovery of any resources of either commodity for the past 20 years.

The real challenge is that the need for metals is going to grow exponentially, due to increasing globalization and the resulting shift in the economic status of billions of people. We need to discover the new resources now for global sustainability, security, and growth.

In figure 2, you'll see that in the period from 2005 to 2010, there's been an unprecedented drop in the number of significant discoveries, despite very large exploration expenditures. Every discovery is important, but world-class discoveries are essential. There are 80% of the world's global resources contained within 20% of the deposits. Real economic and societal impact only comes from the discovery of world-class deposits.

Metal deposits are rare. You have to increase the metal concentration by a thousand times their average crustal abundance. They're small, and essentially more difficult to find than the proverbial needle in a haystack. For example, the surface expression, or footprint, of an underground mine is less than three city blocks. To compound this, new deposits are more difficult to discover. They're deeply buried, they're covered, and the resources in existing mining districts are finite.

Exploration in remote greenfields, the only place we're going to find the new world-class deposits, is challenging, and the success rate there is less. This in part reflects our poor understanding of the geology of Canada's north and far north and the fact that we do not have adequate tools for exploration. We clearly need new tools and concepts to identify the most prospective areas in Canada for exploration in our far north.

Exploration dollars are leaving Canada. For decades Canada was the global destination for exploration expenditures. From 2003 to 2013 exploration expenditures in Canada dropped by 40%. That's $18 billion in lost investment that has gone elsewhere, compared with 24% for Australia, our closest competitor. Australia is now the preferred destination for exploration dollars. Fewer exploration dollars spent in Canada means fewer discoveries and fewer mines.

Ninety per cent of Canada's known resources are of south of 60 degrees latitude, and 95% of the mines are south of 55 degrees, yet the same geology extends to the north. How do we focus our exploration in such a vast area as Canada's north and far north? We really do need to increase discovery rates.

There are hundreds of millions of stranded economic base and precious metal resources in Canada's far north, for example, the Selwyn Basin in Yukon and Hackett River in Nunavut, which would be developed if there were adequate infrastructure and a return to more reasonable metal prices.

Our recommendations include the following. First, we need to upgrade our fundamental geoscience database coverage. The existing 1:250,000 geological mapping that is present and is currently under way, although welcomed, does not have the resolution needed to guide exploration. We need higher resolution mapping in areas with known resources and areas with high prospectivity. This will require increased funding to support geoscience and targeted mapping surveys, which is traditionally done by NRCan and the provincial and territorial surveys, or we have to look at new mechanisms, perhaps through university research centres.

Second, remove roadblocks to global exploration investment in Canada such as secure land tenure and accessibility by reducing land withdrawn from exploration or lands encumbered by first nations issues. An example would be the Ring of Fire that Vic talked about. First nations need to be recognized as co-owners of Canada's northern mineral resources. For example, in Nunavut the Inuit own many of the known mineral tenures, and the mining industry works successfully with them. In the U.S. a native group is co-owner of the world-class Red Dog Mine, the largest zinc producer in the world. We cannot have first nations feeling solely as adversarial owners of environmental protection. Co-ownership of mineral tenure would broaden their perspective.

Third, provide industry with the new tools, protocols, and models needed to make the next generation of greenfield discoveries in Canada. This cannot be done by traditional ore deposit research or by individuals working alone. To be successful, to innovate, we need to financially support and grow our research centres such as the mineral exploration research centre at Laurentian University and the mineral deposit research unit at UBC, as they can assemble, grow, and sustain the multidisciplinary teams needed to solve fundamental research problems and to innovate.

An example of this would be MERC's metal earth program, which will change our understanding of the processes responsible for the economic concentration of metals during our planet's evolution, but it will also transform how we explore for metals by providing new knowledge and new tools to the sector.

Fourth, we need to increase government funding directly or through federal agencies such as NSERC to leverage the industry dollars to support exploration and research within the university-based research centres and to directly support applied exploration driven by industry itself such as the footprints project through the Canada Mining Innovation Council.

The big-science multidisciplinary mineral exploration research programs such as metal earth, conducted by university research centres such as MERC, provide the only mechanism to bring the best minds in Canada and globally together to solve industry problems and to provide students, our future, with the education and training needed to become Canada's leaders in mineral exploration research. Young graduates with the appropriate education and skills are key to the future discovery of future mines.

Fifth, we need new funding to develop programs that target aboriginal youth at the high school level. We need to target them for careers in the mining sector and to develop and support new mining and related programs at both colleges and universities. It's really important, and we need to develop indigenous access programs that provide transitions and pathways into the fields of geology, engineering, and environmental science for first nations people. Although they constitute 10% of our workforce, there are very few in the mining engineering and geology fields, and we desperately need them. We have to target them, and we have to target them when they're at the high school level.

Lastly, I would like to thank you for this opportunity, for your attention, and for your commitment to the mining sector in Canada. It's an essential driver for our economy. It's going to be our future.

Thank you.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Professor Gibson, thank you very much. Thank you all of you. That's the first time we've had three witnesses who have come in under time. We appreciate that, especially today.

I'm going to turn the floor over to Mr. Serré who's first up.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for taking the time to come here today and also for all your hard work in the past and moving forward. In the mining industry, obviously, we have a lot of good things happening. The downturn is cyclical, as we talked about, but we're getting out of it and your work is going to help to achieve this.

My question is for Vic. I'm going to ask my first question on the innovation side.

We've heard at the committee from COSIA on the oil sands and the importance of investment in innovation. You've indicated, obviously, Australia, and we were a leader there, and now we're 26th.

Can you give us some specific recommendations of what the federal government could do to support the mining industry, just targeting on the innovation side itself? Maybe we could utilize best practices from Australia, because they've taken some of our best practices in the past.

8:55 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, MIRARCO Mining Innovation

Vic Pakalnis

We can learn from other countries, absolutely, but maybe they can learn from us as well.

There are some interesting things that I learned at the World Mining Congress, which just happened last week in Rio. With the UN sustainable development goals and all the discussions happening there, we have some unique kinds of things to offer the world. I think the world needs more of Canada.

There were people from the World Economic Forum and the World Bank who were interested in what was happening, for instance, in Sudbury, with the innovation on rehabilitation. When I started out in Falconbridge, the air was absolutely thick with sulphur dioxide. We've cleaned up that entire thing. The air there is better than Ottawa's or Toronto's. The water has in fact come back. The acid rains have been turned around, and we have 300 lakes that have fish you can eat. We have two million trees planted. There is a lot of stuff that we've done research on. The grass seed that we use is used in Norilsk to do that.

It starts right from exploration, the stuff that Harold mentioned. We can develop innovative techniques in geophysics and ways of targeting ore bodies. You all have this pamphlet. You know that a meteorite hit 1.8 billion years ago and created the largest concentration of wealth. That's a good signal for maybe looking at other possibles. There is also the type of targeting that Harold is turning his mind to.

Research and innovation cost money, though. It takes time; it can't be turned around in one quarter or two quarters. If you look at the various parts of this, it goes through the operational cycles. We need better mining methods. Back in the eighties, Canada produced five or six mining methods that are used around the world. We were giants. We had the largest research facilities, Noranda Research in Montreal and Sheridan Park. We had a variety of things like that.

These are different times. Maybe we can consolidate some of that stuff. I am looking at a possibility of Sudbury being a centre that we can consolidate. That innovation can go right across from geology to rehabilitation and close-out.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

On that point, on the next step, we've talked about clusters and ecosystems, and I'm sure Mr. McDougall also has experience in this. The commercialization piece is missing in a lot of the innovation. We'll do the R and D. We'll do the research, but then we are kind of missing the private sector component of the commercialization.

What can we do as a federal government to help that out? I'd ask you to answer quickly, a minute each.

9 a.m.

President, Klondike Placer Miners' Association

Mike McDougall

Thank you very much for the question.

I like to say, in the roughest terms possible, that we turn gravel and gold into money, as placer miners, so we do the commercial part of it. The challenge for us is permitting, so we need to work on making sure that our permit processes are as seamless as possible and that there is a minimum of duplication. As was mentioned before, we need to make sure that the first nations are partners in that and integrate them into the permitting process so that we don't have problems of jurisdiction along the way. I think that's critical.

I'll leave my remarks at that.

9 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, MIRARCO Mining Innovation

Vic Pakalnis

We have about 3,000 manufacturers, suppliers; this is SAMSSA and CAMESE. They could be doubling, tripling their exports. Some of the stuff takes time to develop. They don't have the resources individually, and if there were some money, some bank, some source of funding to commercialize some of the research we've already done.... I have a solution to diesel emission problems. Diesel emissions are carcinogenic. We spent $6 million at Vale and Glencore to find a solution. I can't get it commercialized. I'm going to Germany to try to get somebody to commercialize the damn thing.

We've already got some goods, and we need more of those discoveries. To be able to commercialize the stuff we've already produced, you're absolutely correct, there needs to be some strategy. The minister announced the $800 million in clusters that are going to be developed. I'm hoping this committee will recommend that mining be one of those sectors that's going to be targeted as a priority.

The auto sector is probably first in line coming to you guys, but mining has always been a very insular group, and we don't usually ask for help. This is a time when we are asking for help because we want to be a bigger portion of this economy. If you could help us on the commercialization, on the research, it will pay off in the long run.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you.

Mr. Strahl.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for coming, especially our witnesses from Yukon. As I'm sure Larry can tell you, it's not always an easy trip. It's getting easier, I think. There are more flight options now, but I bare the scars of being the parliamentary secretary for aboriginal affairs and northern development when Bill S-6 was passed, and we had a day in the Yukon when we talked with placer miners, the mining associations, and with Ruth Massie and the Yukon first nations.

Obviously, things were proposed in Bill S-6. There were time limits on the review process to bring it in line with the rest of Canada, exempting projects from reassessment unless there's been significant change, allowing the federal minister to provide binding policy direction, and the ability to delegate to the territorial government on certain issues, so I think those were the four main issues at play.

Have you been consulted? You mentioned in your brief that you'd like to be consulted. Obviously, you weren't consulted before the current Bill C-17 was tabled in the House. Has the government reached out to you to get your point of view subsequent to that tabling, and do you have any comments on those four issues, which are the most important to the placer mining industry, in terms of what was in Bill S-6 and what is proposed to be removed in Bill C-17?

9:05 a.m.

President, Klondike Placer Miners' Association

Mike McDougall

Thank you for that question.

You're right. The four contentious issues were the delegation of authority, the binding policy direction, the fixed assessment guidelines, and the projects that had been previously screened with minor changes not requiring reassessment. If we had to pick from them, we feel that the ability for binding policy direction for the designated offices is critical because of the disconnect between YESAB and the designated offices. As well, the reassessment piece would be important for our members.

Many of our miners are multi-generational and many are still mining in the same place they were 15 or even 20 years ago, so they've been through two or three or four assessments with no change in the overall scope of the project.

Hopefully that answers your question.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

I think it's very important. Also very important, I think, was your commentary that no matter what the level of taxation that's applied to your fuel, for instance, you still have to use it to run your equipment. It's an emissions-intensive, trade-exposed industry; that's the language I've learned.

It's our job here, we're talking about opportunities, threats, or concerns in the mining sector. If the price of your fuel goes up, that just means your profits go down. I don't see how running a D8 or D10.... I don't know what size you're running up there, but it runs on diesel. You can't electrify it. What will this do except be extremely punitive to your industry by raising the cost of your fuel?

9:05 a.m.

President, Klondike Placer Miners' Association

Mike McDougall

That's a very good question, because you are exactly right. We are bulk material handlers. Although the industry has changed dramatically from my father's time to now and we are using more efficient methods, we still require bulldozers for some of our processes and we still use large amounts of fuel. Unless we have an ability to pass on the cost, if there is an additional cost for a tax, then it comes out of our bottom line. It affects the profits of our family operations and it means less profit for those operations.

We're certainly very much encouraging government to look into innovative ways to apply it as an encouragement rather than punitively. Our industry is certainly well disposed to adapt to new technologies that will save the amount of fuel used, but at the end of the day, we still need to move a large amount of material and we still need to use diesel fuel to do it. Anything that increases the cost of the fuel reduces the profitability of the industry.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Do you have estimates, not for the whole association but for your company? If you don't mind sharing, what volumes are we talking about? What are your energy inputs, your fuel? You can just ballpark what your fuel bill would be in a season.

9:05 a.m.

President, Klondike Placer Miners' Association

Mike McDougall

We're a small family-based placer operation, so we fall into the lower third in size of operations. We'll annually use anywhere between 75,000 and 100,000 litres of diesel fuel in our operation. You can do the math very quickly. If the fuel costs an additional 25¢ per litre, then there's an immediate reduction in my profits of that much.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Right.

9:05 a.m.

President, Klondike Placer Miners' Association

Mike McDougall

Those numbers have remained constant for us over the last seven years. It's fairly constant.

In orders of magnitude, we are smaller than the largest operators. They would use two million litres, plus or minus. There's an enormous amount of fuel used to produce this gold.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC

Mr. Pakalnis, I thought the year that you used was interesting. You said you'd like the sector to increase from 4% to 8% by 2030. As you know, 2030 is also the Paris accord target year. In terms of what the government has indicated, how would you propose that the mining output would double while our emissions, which we've just talked about in the mining sector as pretty constant, would be doubling, if not close to it? How do you think we can say, “Let's double mining output”, but at the same time, deal with another 2030 target that is consistently talked about, certainly by the other side?

9:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, MIRARCO Mining Innovation

Vic Pakalnis

Thanks for picking that out. It's very sharp.

Nuclear energy costs five times less than diesel. Did you know that? Diesel creates greenhouse gases; nuclear doesn't. Last night I was talking with Bruce Power about a research project on small modular nuclear batteries, so to speak, 20 to 30 megawatts, where you can put them in a small mining operation. Then you can mine it out, and you can put it somewhere else. In other words, you would not have all the transmission lines that have to be built. If we develop that particular source of energy, we'd be able to meet those greenhouse gas targets, and if Harold does his magic, we'll be able to increase our production as well.

I think we need to be more innovative in terms of our energy sources. Right now, we need to also manage the transition. You can't go cold turkey. We still need oil. We still need gas. We still need all the components right now, but then we need to ensure that we are innovative.

We used to be really big in nuclear energy. The CANDU reactor was one of the safest around the world. I think it can be that way if the proper research is done in that area. That's my answer to that question.