Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 25th, 2016

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I really appreciate your coming to the table with options, other ideas. I think that's something we don't hear enough of. It goes to the fact that you're saying that whether it's the small nuclear plants that we can somehow get up to the north at some point in time.... But as of right now, today, and in the foreseeable future, you don't have any other options in the remote north in these mines, where we've heard several times the future of mining in Canada becomes more and more remote. We're not 100 kilometres from Toronto or 100 kilometres from a major centre. As of right now, you don't have any other options than fuelling your business with diesel.

[Mike McDougall]

That's correct. Most of our mines are well outside of the traditional grids, if you will. Our only option is using diesel fuel to develop that.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I'm going to have to stop you there. We're going to move to the next person.

Just so everybody knows, we are going to be able to go until 10 o'clock this morning.

Mr. Rusnak, go ahead.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I don't know if you're familiar, in talking to Vic and Harold, with the New Gold project in my riding. Rainy River will be Ontario's newest gold mine. I've paid a visit to the site several times and they work very well with the first nations in the area. You said that Laurentian and your organization are making an effort to engage first nations. Can you explain the effort that both your organizations have been making with first nations?

[Vic Pakalnis]

The first thing is we're a bilingual university, tri-cultural. We have a very strong aboriginal program at Laurentian. As far as the programs go, we're talking about access. We're developing those, trying to get more of that. Our primary target is of course northern Ontario. The ministry of aboriginal affairs gave us the $5 million over two years to help with developing capacity within the first nations. This is to deal with the cap and trade that's coming in January or February. Hopefully, they'll be able to use that capacity to take advantage of some of the revenues flowing out of cap and trade.

The company you mentioned is one of the better ones, in fact, on dealing with first nations, providing community support, a variety of things—absolutely. You should know that the mining industry in Ontario takes this very seriously. We have an aboriginal affairs committee at the Ontario Mining Association that's looking at capacity building, looking at developing policies around revenue sharing, all of these areas. The mining companies are very much in favour of this. There are no laggards who are fighting it, or whatever else. I see that we're heading in the right direction. We just have to keep encouraging people, as in Rainy River and elsewhere.

[Prof. Harold Gibson]

I would echo everything Vic has said. We have the Vale Living With Lakes Centre, which is an environmental group that is incredibly involved with first nations peoples, especially from the water quality perspective. They're working in the Far North. We have great working relations with them.

At the mineral exploration research centre, where I am the director, every year we offer a first nations workshop on exploration. We bring first nations community representatives of first nation communities in, and industry in, and we have a discussion on what's gone right and what's gone wrong with the consultation process, and how we move forward. I did this for the education of our undergrad students, because I want our students to understand that this is one of the most significant issues they're going to face as they leave and head into the workforce. We're engaged that way.

The metal earth project has now provided us with another tool we never had before. It's another means to do this, so we're building. That's all I wanted to say.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Serré, you were going to use the balance of Mr. Rusnak's time.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McDougall, are you part of the Canadian Mining Association?

[Mike McDougall]

We're not part of the Canadian Mining Association. We're primary producers, but placer is unique in the Klondike, unique in the Yukon, and in Canada.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I wanted to follow through with a comment from Vic and also look at your operations, because we've heard from Goldcorp, for example, that they're moving forward to an all-battery mine. There are batteries today in heavy equipment. We have a company in Sudbury selling batteries for heavy equipment in Russia and all over the world. There are alternatives today that are quickly moving forward. I How can we capitalize on that?

Vic, you talked about the need for more R and D and how to utilize some of that R and D, which you already have developed, to commercialize. Can you expand on that?

[Vic Pakalnis]

There is no doubt that we're going from diesel to electric. Diesel particulate matter is a known carcinogen, and we have to move from diesel underground to all electric. There are a number of companies that are already starting to supply different types of scooptrams and a variety of different vehicles.

Tesla, if you give them a little poke, will probably solve a lot of problems for the type of electric-powered equipment, but we have a transition issue. We have thousands of pieces of equipment that cost a fortune. One scooptram underground costs you a million bucks, so you're not going to just discard that, especially when the mining industry is in tough shape right now because of the commodity prices. You have to develop a transition plan.

Eventually, new mines will probably go all electric, but in the meantime we have to get to cleaner diesel filters and that sort of thing. We have to come up with a practical transition plan.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

[Vic Pakalnis]

You're right though. There are emerging manufacturers—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Excuse me, sir. I'm going to have to stop you there.

[Vic Pakalnis]

Yes, sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Maybe we can get back to that in a moment.

Mr. Strahl, I understand you're going to take the next segment, for five minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you, and Ms. Stubbs certainly would ask questions if she were feeling better today.

To follow up with Mr. Serré's point, I think it is fairly evident that batteries don't work as well in cold weather, and you are dealing with some of the most extreme temperatures in Canada. While Tesla might work nicely in Toronto and Vancouver, battery-powered D10s are not on. Obviously, there's room for improvement, but to suggest that an entire fleet of heavy equipment can be switched over to battery power, I think, is...certainly not in the short term, and not with the current technology that we have.

I wanted to go back to the proposed changes in Bill C-17. I'm a bit concerned that the Klondike placer miners were not consulted on the carbon tax being imposed on their industry, and they were not consulted, as well, on the Bill C-17 changes to repeal a number of improvements to the regulatory regime in the Yukon.

Could you give me an indication of what is the current average time frame for a project for your industry, if you're going into a new area or if they're reconsidering putting you through the wringer again for a project that has not had a significant change? What are the current timelines from the time you submit your application until you would expect to receive final approval to proceed?

[Mike McDougall]

Currently, the permitting process that a placer mine goes through in Yukon consists of an assessment through YESAB, and then an application for a water licence through the Yukon Water Board for the final operating permit. Because of an artifact of federal legislation being taken over under devolution, those processes aren't parallel; they're consecutive. Right now, the consecutive process can last up to six or eight months for a placer mine to go in. It sounds short when you're talking about metal mines, but contrast that with what we had prior to bringing in YESAA, when our process took up to 30 days to receive a water licence. The timelines have grown considerably for us, and with the timelines grows uncertainty.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

All right. I'll go back to Mr. Pakalnis.

Our next study is on nuclear power, so perhaps we will expand our horizons on that. How far off do you think that technology is? I can think of many concerns from many communities about having mobile nuclear plants inserted in the north, or in any region. We have enough concerns—I'm sure we'll get into them—about the disposing of nuclear waste.

I agree with you that it is obviously something that needs to be discussed, but often, the people most concerned about reducing emissions are also some of the people most opposed to nuclear power. How do you suggest that government or Parliament navigate that? Is there anything you're working on currently that might help address the nuclear waste issue? I can think of problems of security. I can think of many problems, but perhaps that is the wrong way to look at it. I want you to expand because you got cut off a little bit the last time.

[Vic Pakalnis]

First of all, I'm a mining engineer. I'm a rock mechanics engineer. In fact, I specialize in that kind of area. Nuclear waste disposal is not an issue. We could dispose of the nuclear waste very easily. The problem is social. Where are you going to put it? Nobody wants it in their backyard.

There is also a lot of emotional reaction, and some of it has to be addressed. Of all the power and all the energy we have, 60% comes from nuclear reactors. Most people figure that somehow it's going to disappear. No, in fact it's one of the most sustainable energy sources that we have, and if we want to save the globe in terms of global warming, we have to embrace it.

There is a lot of research happening. We've had small nuclear plants running around the world—nuclear submarines for instance. We have some research on the books that you'll probably hear about from the nuclear experts at Chalk River for instance. They want a demonstration site to show how a portable modular plant can work. It is something that you can put in and use for 20 to 30 years, or whatever the life of the mine is. Then you can take it out, refurbish it at some other location, and use it again elsewhere without having to have a permanent storage at that site.

In terms of the research that's being done, my organization, MIRARCO is doing work with the nuclear waste disposal group in terms of ensuring that—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Pakalnis, I hate to keep doing this but I'm going to have to cut you off there. My apologies.

[Vic Pakalnis]

It's solvable.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

We have some time limits we're notionally following.

[Vic Pakalnis]

You're right.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Serré, I understand you're going to ask the next set of questions for five minutes.