Evidence of meeting #4 for Natural Resources in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was significant.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Frank Des Rosiers  Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology, Department of Natural Resources
Terence Hubbard  Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I would like to call the meeting to order. We're starting a little bit late. We had a vote to deal with and a special occasion in the House of Commons today, which was unique, unfortunately.

We have our first set of witnesses today, but we also have three temporary members sitting in today. I'd like to welcome them: Mr. Stetski from the NDP, to my left; Ms. Dhillon down to my far right, who is sitting in for Mr. Tan; and Mr. Arnold who is sitting in for Ms. Bergen, who had to step out. I'm advised that we can proceed in her absence and that she will return shortly. So thank you to the three of you for being here today.

We have three witnesses today. Frank Des Rosiers is the assistant deputy minister of innovation and energy technology. With him is Nicole McDonald, acting director general of CanmetENERGY in Devon, and Terence Hubbard, director general of the petroleum resources branch, the energy sector.

You are the first set of witnesses for a study we are embarking on dealing with the future of Canada's oil and gas, mining, and nuclear sectors, dealing in particular with innovation, sustainable solutions, and economic opportunities.

The three of you have kindly agreed to be here today to provide us with some evidence and to educate us on the oil and gas sector. Thank you very much.

Mr. Des Rosiers, you have the floor.

March 9th, 2016 / 3:55 p.m.

Frank Des Rosiers Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology, Department of Natural Resources

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be here and launch this particular study. We do have a short deck to present, which is on the screen, and I will provide a brief commentary around it. I understand that you have copies of it as well.

I hope to cover three key elements in this overview: first, to do a quick overview of the oil and gas sector in Canada, then talk about the importance of innovation in that space, and lastly speak about some actions taken by the Government of Canada relating to innovation and oil and gas.

If I may kick off with the overview, on slide 3 and others you will find some numbers and figures, which I will analyze succinctly.

First, in terms of the resource endowment of Canada, both in oil and gas, Canada is blessed with very large resources. In oil, we are blessed with the world's third-largest resource endowment, after Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. Similarly, with natural gas, we also have a very abundant supply, which actually keeps growing as technology progresses in that space.

The oil and gas sector represents an aggregate close to 8% of GDP, $137 billion of annual exports, a large amount of investments as well, and 200,000 in direct employment across the country. It is a fairly sizeable source of wealth.

Needless to say, in the current context, the price environment is rather challenging for commodities. We all watch this in the news regularly, and that's been very true lately on the oil side in particular, as we've seen significant price drops during the past year.

In the bottom right corner, you will see a picture that shows the trend over the medium to long-terms. We've seen on one hand a significant increase in renewable energy happening in Canada and globally. If we look at some of those estimates from the International Energy Agency and other world-leading bodies, we still have an expectation that oil and gas will represent a significant part of the global energy mix.

The next slide shows the importance of innovation in the sector, both in terms of improving Canada's environmental performance and in terms of reducing costs and increasing productivity.

One interesting thing to mention is that many of the greatest innovation opportunities have a dual effect. There is an effect with respect to both reducing greenhouse gases and reducing production inputs. This is especially the case in the oil and gas sector because many of these opportunities relate to reducing the energy to extract the resource or to process it into derived products.

The evidence in this case is particularly striking. It is also important to mention that there are opportunities not only domestically but also in exporting these technologies abroad.

The global clean technology market is growing rapidly. According to the latest estimates, it will be worth about $2.5 trillion, or 2,500 billion, by 2022. This represents significant export opportunities for our companies, which are world leaders in many areas.

It may also be important to mention that many of these activities, both in the production sector and in the development of these technologies, are carried out in remote areas in Canada. This may well generate opportunities for our communities, including indigenous communities.

If we look at the recent history of the oil and gas sector in Canada, it's already known to be a knowledge-intensive industry with lots of advanced technology, but also a lot of know-how that is worth acknowledging. We've seen this, whether in the oil sands or in many other dimensions of the oil and gas sector.

You see here on the slide a yardstick of the performance improvements over the past 20-year period in terms of GHG emissions, where we have seen reductions in the order of 30% of the GHG emissions per barrel, but also in terms of water use, where we've seen very significant reductions in the use of fresh water in production.

Another domain that perhaps is less known among parliamentarians and Canadians alike is the expertise that Canada has in carbon capture and use. Canada is seen as one of the top nations in not just large scale deployment of those technologies—we have 4 of the 15 largest large-scale projects in the world—but also in significant expertise in helping the future technologies in that space.

On slide 6 I have tried to capture for you a sense of those areas where we see the greatest potential for technology development. Starting in the oil sands domain, I thought of using, as an anchor, the recent report published by the Council of Canadian Academies, which came out less than a year ago. It showcased six of the most promising technologies in this space. I could describe a couple of those that are particularly significant in changing the landscape, both in terms of performance and cost.

The first one is around the use of solvents, basic extraction technologies, which have the potential to reduce GHG emissions by the order of 50% and reduce by 30% the capital cost requirements to develop such resources. Another one that the Council of Canadian Academies highlighted is the direct contact steam generation technology, which actually is being developed in our CanmetENERGY facility here in Ottawa, working closely with Suncor, which is a major oil producer out west. There, the potential for GHG reduction is in the order of 70% to 80% and the cost reduction per barrel between $2 and $8, so it's also quite significant.

Beyond the oil sands space, methane is another area where we see significant potential. It does represent about 10% of global GHG emissions in the country, for the simple reason that from all those gases that are either flared or vented in the country, the methane emissions have a much more potent impact in terms of GHG emissions by a factor of about 32 times greater than CO2. Every bit of progress we can make with regard to methane reduction has a very significant impact on our greenhouse gas emissions pattern.

There the good news is that there has been significant progress in technology development to capture those gases and hydrocarbons, and finding ways to avoid those emissions into the atmosphere. This is a key priority for the Government of Canada and the Government of Alberta, which has already gone public about its commitment to reduce those emissions by the order of 45% between now and 2025. Many of our partner countries, like the U.S., have put methane at the top of their list for reductions because the payback from that is very compelling. We think this should be a priority area.

Other areas that are actively being pursued concern the use of renewable energy as a source of power for the extraction sector, whether it's bioenergy, solar, or wind. There is a lot of activity in that particular space.

I've mentioned before the strength that Canada has in carbon capture and use. Again, this is an area where we do considerable work with our university and industry partners to further that technology and lower the cost, which is our main challenge in this space.

In the next slide, we highlight how important it is that this research be conducted in partnership with industry and academia. This is an opportunity to draw on the expertise of all these stakeholders and reduce the risks surrounding the development of such technologies, which are complex and require substantial expertise from all sides.

In our view, another opportunity is to seek partnerships abroad. An agreement was signed as recently as last month at the meeting of the North America energy ministers. The U.S., Canadian, and Mexican ministers met and agreed to establish a closer partnership in the coming years precisely to carry out the development of such technologies, both in the fossil energy sector and in green energy and renewable energy in Canada and North America.

The following slide gives you a bit of a snapshot. I do acknowledge that this is very succinct, but I understand that the committee will hear from other witnesses over the coming weeks.

We'd like to acknowledge the leadership taken by the industry, particularly the members of COSIA, the Canadian oil sands industry alliance, who have been somewhat bold in their vision of bringing some technology, initially developed separately, to be shared among the companies involved in the space. That accounts for about 800 technologies worth over $1.3 billion. We think this effort should be applauded and pursued with vigour by the industry, especially now that we face such a predicament in terms of the environment. Now is the time to pursue those efforts. We have seen some recent announcements, which will be referenced in the presentation.

The next slide emphasizes some of the contributions from the Government of Canada in that space in two orders.

The first is by using our scientific expertise, and we're fortunate to have present today one of our directors general, Nicole McDonald, from the CanmetENERGY Lab out in Devon, Alberta, who is leading a lot of the work around that research. We also do a lot of that work here in Ottawa in our facility at CanmetENERGY, and we have a third lab in the Montreal region in Varennes. Those labs obviously deal with oil and gas, but also the broad spectrum of energy R and D in the country. They have significant expertise in that space

The second tool that I want to emphasize is some of our programs in both NRCan and SDTC, to name those two. They have been committing a significant amount of resources over the past years to developing those technologies across the country.

If I may, Mr. Chair, I will close my remarks by emphasizing one announcement that took place in Paris at the COP 21 meetings back in late November when Prime Minister Trudeau was accompanied by 19 other world leaders to commit to Mission Innovation. There were so many announcements happening during this time period that it was hard to keep track of them all, but this one was actually quite significant.

This announcement committed those 20 nations, which included not just Canada, the U.S., and Mexico, but also Germany, Italy, France, China, Japan, South Korea, and pretty much all of the key nations involved in energy R and D on the global stage, to do three things. The first is to double the level of energy R and D over the next five years. The second is to bring patient capital from the private sector to the mix—and there Bill Gates showed some leadership in committing some of his own money but also brought along a number of large investors from around the world to contribute to funding in this space among the signatory countries, which include Canada. The third is to encourage more collaboration across borders precisely to deal with those advancements of transformative technologies that are so challenging to develop. These nations felt that this was one of the most powerful vectors to get our nations a step closer to meeting the Paris ambition that had been laid out by those nations.

With that, I will turn the floor back to you.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much. That was very helpful and informative.

I'm now going to open the floor to some questions.

I'll start with Mr. Harvey.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for coming and taking time out of your schedules. Along with the chair, I, too, apologize for the fact that we were late getting started today.

I want to lead off by talking a little about something you put in one of your slides, which is that the oil and gas sector is a key pillar in the Canadian economy, representing close to 8% of Canada's GDP and $137 billion in exports.

I think you know that the spirit of this study is definitely along the lines of looking to see how we can help position this sector to move forward in a collaborative fashion to allow for its development at a time when it seems to be struggling.

My first question for you both is how do you feel that government involvement in clean technology can help generate opportunity and job creation in both the natural resource and technology sectors?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology, Department of Natural Resources

Frank Des Rosiers

The committee member is right to point out the sheer significance of this industry, and it's sometimes tempting to be distracted by some of the ups and downs in the short term. The government has committed in recent pronouncements to investing significant amounts of monies in that space, using a variety of instruments, starting with expenditure measures. There's $200 million per year over four years that has been committed for innovation in natural resources in the energy, forestry, mining, fisheries and oceans, and agriculture sectors.

The second source of funding is $100 million a year over four years in support for clean-tech producers. That should certainly give a significant push to advancing this innovation agenda. The government has also committed to looking at the variety of measures—regulations, tax measures, the green infrastructure funds, the $60 billion over ten years, and $20 billion for green infrastructure—which should meaningfully contribute to that particular space in creating that demand pool.

That set of instruments combined should provide some significant push and pull for the sector, recognizing that global markets still have to go through their own gyrations, which are well beyond the control of Canada. There we'll have to keep our eyes on the ball in the medium to longer terms, I would submit, to see how the prices evolve. At least in terms of the controllable elements, the government is determined to take more action.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

What other benefits do you think this type of investment could have for the natural resources sector and, specifically, the pillar of oil and gas? That's what we're leading off with as the first pillar. What types of benefits do you think we can garner either directly or indirectly from this type of investment in clean technology and green infrastructure?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology, Department of Natural Resources

Frank Des Rosiers

I was at the GLOBE conference just this past week, where there was significant interest on the part of those companies to team up and use some of those funds and also to leverage private sector funding and university funding to advance that research.

I do believe we have a significant capacity to respond to those programs that are to be announced over the coming years. I am fairly confident that there's enough responsive capacity out there to bring about the kind of technology we're looking for.

One has to be cognizant of the fact that for many of the technologies I've described, especially the transformative ones, we're talking about it taking many years to bring them to market and to be scaled up. While it does depend on their level of complexity, it would not be uncommon to talk about five to seven years or so to bring these kinds of technologies to market and then to test them on a larger scale and, eventually, to deploy them broadly. So, it would take five to ten years out on the horizon to see those applied on a large scale, but there are also technologies with shorter implementation times for some of the measures that could be looked at. Methane is one example that I have showcased. The technologies are actually available and could be deployed right away and benefit the oil and gas sector.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

On page 8, one of the bullets said, “In current price environment, industry is being challenged to maintain investment in R&D”. Do you feel that this is possibly the most important time for government to invest in new technology to help further R and D development within this sector?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology, Department of Natural Resources

Frank Des Rosiers

Yes. From the government's side, the intentions have been stated clearly. From the industry side, it is rather challenging right now to free up cash flow to do this. But, absolutely, now is the time. Having listened to some of the industry leaders in the space, I think they do acknowledge both publicly and privately that now is probably the perfect moment to double up innovation efforts, though it is challenging for them to free up the necessary resources to do so.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

TJ Harvey Liberal Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Okay. I have one last question.

On page 10, one of the bullets specifically talks about Canada being one of the 20 countries that will double spending on clean energy R and D over the next five years, working closely with the private sector to encourage investment through the Breakthrough Energy Coalition, and to increase domestic and international energy R and D collaboration. How do you feel that increased domestic and international collaboration can help further R and D within the sector?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology, Department of Natural Resources

Frank Des Rosiers

As I mentioned before, a lot of the technologies involved there are complex, so we need to be able to leverage some of the expertise and the monies to carry on some of those demos. To give you an example, a large scale demo in the oil and gas sector can range very quickly between $50 million and $125 million a pop. To the extent possible, when we can do those large-scale demos, for instance jointly with the U.S., Mexico, or other leading nations, it's a chance for us to lower the risk and to be able to pursue more of those technologies and bring them to the marketplace.

I have to say that perhaps thanks to the Paris discussions that took place during the past months, there's a sense of celerity and understanding of the need collectively to accelerate the pace of those efforts. It's not just true in North America, but also true in Asia and Europe. The willingness to collaborate is stronger than ever. Since the December discussions, we've seen a lot of interest being shown by our partner countries, who want to team up with Canada and our firms to do more of that research. I'm fairly hopeful as the months and years go by that we'll be able to forge more of those cross-border research calibrations and be able to advance more rapidly through the innovation spectrum with some of those technologies.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you very much. That's Mr. Harvey's time.

I understand, Mr. Barlow, that you're going to take the floor now.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of you for coming here and taking time in your schedule. We were late, but I think it was for a fantastic reason, and as parliamentarians we will probably all remember the time we had in the House today.

It's great to have a fellow Albertan here. Ms. McDonald, thank you very much for coming and bringing this crazy weather.

I was happy to see in your report something that we do a very poor job of as a government, and in industry for that matter. For example, the Prime Minister is going to Washington this week and will talk as a guest speaker with a group that calls our oil industry and our energy sector dirty business. The information you have reiterates the fact that we have among the cleanest energy sectors in the world. Here I look at the 30% reduction in GHGs since 1990.

I'm sure, Nicole, you may want to touch on this as well if you have a chance, or if my colleagues have a chance to go to see the oil sands in northern Alberta.

There are no tailing ponds anymore, and there are no flare stacks. However, we do a horrible job in telling the story that we have in our energy sector.

What kind of time is taken in your department in marketing these kinds of statistics? I know you can't speak for what the Prime Minister will be doing in Washington in this week, but I think a big change for us would be to tell this story of Canada's record in innovation and environmental stewardship. Is there anything going on toward marketing these numbers?

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology, Department of Natural Resources

Frank Des Rosiers

That's a very good point. Perhaps it speaks to the nature of our cultural fabric. As Canadians, we tend to be humble, but humility sometimes may not be such a good thing when it gets to promoting some of our successes in advancing the technology in this space. There seems to be a bit of a lag between where the industry and the technologies are at now and the perception not just within the Canadian public, but among some of our external clients.

I have to say that the efforts over the past should certainly be pursued and probably be enhanced to showcase some of those initiatives. I'm thinking particularly of the work of some of our small and medium-sized firms active in this space, many of which have been recipients of some of our support and who have found some of those great technologies. I'm thinking for instance in terms of water technology. Gas flaring is another example that is coming to mind. We are truly world leaders in that space. We did some sessions for instance down in Washington working closely with our mission there to bring some of the companies and let them share their practices. We also did quite a number of sessions this past week at the GLOBE conference in Vancouver, where we brought some Canadian companies to connect with South Korean firms and Chinese firms. There were some B2B sessions, but also some more open sessions to share the results of their work. There is a large-scale exhibit also taking place there. Those events are great because we had over 50 countries in attendance, over 2,000 delegates, and 10,000 or so attending the showcase of those technologies.

Those are venues where it could be done. I would agree, Mr. Chair, with the committee member that this is an area where we could do better. We should definitely work also with our Global Affairs Canada colleagues and the Canadian technology experts that we have around around our missions to get the message out.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

Thank you. I would just mention, as a comment on this, that the tone right now from our government is the opposite of what you're saying. You're saying that we're having to delay everything, that we need to find social licence and have more consultation, whereas these numbers show that our record is extremely strong. I would encourage the government to spend some time changing the tone and narrative of what they're saying right now, because uncertainty in this industry is certainly not helping.

The information you presented showed that the oil and gas industry provides close to 8% of GDP and 200,000 direct jobs, not indirect jobs. Have you done anything concerning what the impact would be on our GDP and jobs if we replaced the 630,000 barrels a day that we're importing from foreign countries with domestic oil through something such as the energy east project? What would the impact on our GDP and jobs be?

4:20 p.m.

Terence Hubbard Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Thank you for the question.

I don't think we have a specific number for the impact on GDP or on jobs related to oil production that could be realized by displacing imports into Canada.

I would note, though, that Canada is a large and growing exporter of crude oil. As the statistics in the deck show, the oil and gas sector is a significant part of Canada's economy and supports a lot of employment across the country.

As we move forward and look at opportunities to continue to support and grow this industry going forward, we'll continue to support jobs in this sector.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

I would suggest that this might be something to look into, if you have a chance. A study or some sort of work that could be done to show the impact would be helpful.

I was really excited to see the numbers showing what has been achieved through research and development. I think that achievement is fantastic. I'm just wondering what partnerships there are, or is there a partnership with the private sector for that R and D? Are those federal dollars being leveraged with the private sector to work on some of these innovative ideas, not only in Alberta but also across the country?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology, Department of Natural Resources

Frank Des Rosiers

Absolutely. I would say that every single project we're leading in this space is done in collaboration with industry. The reason for that is twofold: getting leverage and making sure we have an impact, but probably more importantly, for relevance. There's no point in the lab that Nicole directs, for instance, carrying out research in some kind of arcane domain that's not going to lead to anything. Making sure there is adoption at the end of the road is for us a key measure of success.

Partnering up early on with industry and universities, which have significant capacity in the space, is in our view a way to ensure success in adoption. Similarly, when we provide funding to our own programming, to SDTC and others, the benefit goes directly to those firms.

One of the key variables for the selection is leveraging and collaboration with others, as we want to make sure that people work together, so that we don't have half a dozen people working on the same widget and competing with one another. We have limited star power in the country to advance such research. We want to do it together, to the extent we can.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you.

Mr. Stetski, we go over to you.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you again for being here. It's a very important topic for Canadians.

Specific to crude oil, what measures does the department have in place to encourage value-added processing and job creation in Canada?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology, Department of Natural Resources

Frank Des Rosiers

One of our four key domains of research on the oil side is upgrading. The Government of Alberta has stated that this is one its top priorities, but it also holds interest in a couple of ways. You have mentioned the benefit in terms of job creation and creating investment opportunities, but it's also an opportunity to free up our pipeline network, because this upgraded oil is viscous and therefore easier to transport within our pipeline system. It thus also has significant benefit in that regard.

It's also a chance for us to get more value out of this product on the export market and to diversify our market base of refineries that can take our crude. This has been an area of active research, in close collaboration, I would say, with Alberta Innovates, which is the research arm of the Government of Alberta. They have been very good partners for us in doing some of this work.

4:20 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Terence Hubbard

I would also add that while Canada is a large net exporter of crude oil, we're also a net exporter of petroleum products. We currently produce in Canada more petroleum products than we consume, particularly on the east coast, in Atlantic Canada.

Obviously, as we go forward and look at opportunities and the innovation agenda going forward, we'll help support the development of a robust and competitive industry here in Canada. We talk about improving environmental performance a lot, on that side of things, but innovation is a key driver in reducing cost to ensure that we can develop this industry here in Canada.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Does the department actually have a mandate to try to keep jobs in Canada, then, to keep the oil in Canada and deal with it here rather than ship it away?

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Terence Hubbard

Our mandate within the Department of Natural Resources is to look at the sustainable development of our resources. It's to look at ways to develop these resources and support competitive industry in Canada, but to do it in such a way that's environmentally sustainable going forward. We do have that dual role, dual mandate.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC

For renewable and green energy sources, innovation and new energy technologies will continue to be very important, of course, when it comes to developing all of our natural resources. If we're being sincere, we should be trying to do it in an environmentally sensitive way. What role do renewable and green energy sources play in accomplishing that goal of environmental sustainability in industry?