Natural Resources Committee on May 4th, 2017

[Denis Lemieux, Liberal, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Have you thought about extending the credit for a longer period, beyond a year?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

We do that every year. Let's just say that I think it's a great idea and I will move it along with my colleagues, particularly in the finance department. Thank you for your encouragement.

[Denis Lemieux, Liberal, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Still on the subject of the extended mineral exploration tax credit, I would like you to explain, Minister, if you would, what attracting capital here, in Canada, means for mining companies.

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

It applies to the juniors. They need this tax credit to give them the financial incentive they need to continue to do their work, and we believe there's lots of evidence to come to the conclusion that it's an intelligent use of lost revenue for the government. When you give these incentives to the private sector, it comes at some cost, so the Government of Canada has to do an assessment of whether or not the cost is worth it. We have done that twice in the life of this government, and our conclusion has been yes, it is worth it, and we think that's demonstrable.

It gives me a chance to say something about the Canadian mining industry, which—as you were saying a couple of minutes ago about the forestry sector—is leading the world in sustainable practices. Many times I've had the pleasure of sitting down with the Mining Association of Canada. I've been so impressed with not only their commitment to sustainable mining practices but also their partnership with indigenous communities.

One of the best examples of these partnerships across the natural resource economy is actually within the mining sector. I can be even more specific. It's in the uranium industry in northern Saskatchewan, where an entire indigenous middle class has been built through the cooperation and partnership between mining companies and indigenous communities.

We are very supportive of the way in which the sector is adapting to the new realities, both in its relationships with indigenous people and in its commitment to sustainable practices, and we're very happy that this 15% tax credit is helping them. We think they deserve the help.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Lemieux.

Ms. Stubbs, I assume you're next up.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I think so, yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Mr. Minister, for taking the time to be here today. I just have a direct question for you. Do you believe that Canada produces the most environmentally and socially responsible oil and gas in the world?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm not in a position to know what metrics you're referring to, to say that it is the most or the best. The government and I support the industry through policy and decisions on major infrastructure development. We support it through a variety of programs incenting the private sector to move along to find more sustainable practices. We think that the oil and gas industry, primarily in Alberta, is essential to the health of Canada's economy and to the natural resource sector, which makes up—

I am being handed a note. NRCan and Shell Canada, for example, have worked together to develop a froth treatment technology that decreases oil sands energy and water use by 10%. This technology has become the industry standard.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I used to work in the Department of Energy, in the oil sands business unit, in Alberta. I represent a big, rural, northern Alberta riding, just south of the oil sands. The rural communities in my riding are absolutely fuelled by the energy development in heavy oil and oil sands, and conventional oil and natural gas in that area.

I appreciate your reading off some statistics, but I just want to take this opportunity to express to you why Albertans have a hard time believing your words. I think Calgarians were loud and clear about that in the recent by-elections. I hope we don't get into a debate over your telling me what Albertans think. They have a hard time believing what you're saying because you have no problem passionately, directly, and coherently talking about other sectors leading the world, and then you equivocate and can't answer the same directly about Canadian oil and gas. On a number of measures ranging from the regulatory system to environmental performance, it is acknowledged by experts around the world that Canadian oil and gas is the most environmentally and socially responsible oil and gas in the world.

I think it would help energy workers right across the country, who feel absolutely and utterly devastated and hopeless—Albertans but also Canadians in other energy-producing provinces and communities that benefit from energy development, in fact every community across the country—if you, as a leader, as a representative of the federal government, as a prominent and influential voice on behalf of Canada, would say that unabashedly and without equivocation.

If you want to know some other points, Alberta, of course, was the first jurisdiction in all of North America to regulate emissions. That was more than a decade ago. Alberta was the first jurisdiction, in fact, to implement a targeted $15-a-tonne carbon levy on major industrial emitters, which included oil sands developers. That was more than a decade ago.

Yet, here Albertans are today confused as to why, when we ask questions about concrete actions your government is taking in response to, for example, the drop in energy investment over the past couple of years, which represents the equivalent of the elimination of the entire auto manufacturing sector and 75% of the aerospace sector, your answer is, “Why aren't Albertans and energy workers grateful enough for these pipeline approvals? Why aren't they grateful enough for the five-and-a-half-weeks' extension of employment insurance?”

You're spending millions and billions of dollars in other sectors, in direct handouts to companies in other countries while people are utterly devastated about their livelihoods and their futures.

You've already pointed out how critical an issue this is with regard to competitiveness and trade, particularly with the U.S. You've acknowledged both the trade imbalance there and the way that we are heavily dependent on—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Ms. Stubbs, if you're going to ask a question, you should do so. You're running out of time.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks. I'll just make my own decision about how I advocate here at the committee.

Yet it's the first time in Canadian history that a prime minister overruled and rejected the recommendation of an independent regulator on the only pipeline that would actually expand and diversify our export markets and allow energy projects to get to Asian markets.

You refuse to stand up for the building of pipelines, which are under federal jurisdiction when you could provide that much-needed leadership and hope for us.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

That's the time. I'm going to have to stop you there, Ms. Stubbs.

Unfortunately, Mr. Minister, the time to respond was consumed.

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Through you, Mr. Chair, I would just like to thank members of the committee. This is the best feature of our democracy: to be accountable, to take positive suggestions, and to take them away. I'm very grateful for the chance to exchange views with the members of the committee. Thank you very much for your time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

If you have time, we can have one more set of questions. Do you have five more minutes?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Ms. Ng, we'll go over to you.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the warm welcome.

Thank you to the rest of the committee members. Committee members, I look forward to my work here with each and every one of you.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for being here today.

You talked about the importance of the need to transition away from fossil fuels and to look at innovation. Maybe you can talk to us about Generation Energy, an initiative you recently launched, and about how that initiative will help experts in the energy sector in particular who are going to have conversations and provide some advice about what the future will look like.

Can you talk to the committee about what that work will look like?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I can, and I appreciate the question for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that the announcement was made in the Manitoba hydro building in my hometown, which is one of the most energy efficient buildings in the world.

The announcement was that we will host a major symposium on the future of Canada's energy mix in October. We will challenge Canadians to take a blank sheet of paper and write on that paper what they think our energy mix should look like in a generation. We will ask some of the finest minds around the world to join us in that inquiry, which has certainly not been done in recent memory. I think the time is just right for Canada to have a serious look at all of the sources of energy available to us, and maybe to find sources of energy that we've never dreamed of, through research and development and the work with scientists, innovators, and entrepreneurs.

It is a chance for the country to gather and to take a serious look at how we want our children—I guess, in my case, my grandchildren, if they would ever come—to answer questions such as, what's going to power the home? What's going to power the vehicle? What's the workplace going to look like? How are we going to produce and manufacture goods and services?

I welcome it as a fresh opportunity, with no preconceived ideas of what will come of it. We will set the stage in our department and will invite the country and, indeed, parts of the world to come to Canada and have a very good look at what the future energy mix will look like and should look like.

Thank you for that question.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Cannings, we can use the remaining two or three minutes for you, if you want.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Perfect. Thank you.

I notice that in the estimates there's mention of a couple of decreases in funding for a couple of the ecoENERGY projects for biofuels and renewable power. Maybe they've gone to innovation like everything else. My question is, where is the ecoENERGY retrofit program?

This is a program that was so successful. I give the Conservatives full credit for them bringing it in. It was so successful. It leveraged dollars at a 4:1 or 5:1 ratio, with homeowners putting in $4 for every dollar the federal government put in. It did so much good work. The homeowners loved it because they saved money on their energy bills. The government loved it because it produced a great amount of energy savings and helped reduce greenhouse gases, and the construction industry loved it. They noticed it when that program was cut. It would be the simplest thing, and I know it's gone off to the provinces and the pan Canadian framework, but I'm mystified why the federal government didn't keep it and use it as a real flagship program. Do you have any idea?

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

No. We'll take good ideas from wherever they may come, even from the official opposition—especially from the official opposition. You know, we might take credit for it later, but you know the way that works.

Budget 2017 invests a further $181.8 million over eight years to reduce energy use and emissions in the building sector through building codes, technology, innovation, labelling, and standards.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Homeowners.

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

As always, colleague, I'm very open to having a conversation with you about the value proposition, the investment choices that you know we have to make, and to hear what I'm sure would be very good arguments that this is something that should be looked at carefully.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

We'll have to stop there, unfortunately, Mr. Cannings.

Minister, thank you very much for taking the time out of your schedule. We know you are very busy, particularly these days, so we're all very grateful.

[Jim Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.