Evidence of meeting #11 for Natural Resources in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forestry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Hilary Jane Powell
Derek Orr  Indigenous Relations, As an Individual
Mike Beck  Operations Manager, Capacity Forest Management Ltd.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 11 of the Standing Committee on Natural Resources. This meeting is on the forest industry.

Today we have two witnesses scheduled for the first hour and a half, and then at 2:30 we are going to suspend and go in camera to discuss some committee business, including the balance of this report.

Before we get into the introduction of the witnesses, which I will do in a second, I want to chat briefly about something that happened at the end of the last meeting. We ran out of time when we were going into committee business. I understand that Mr. McLean wanted to present something at the time, which didn't happen. I subsequently spoke to Mr. McLean.

To the extent there was any confusion on Monday about process and how that happened, I will take responsibility, and I apologize. I understand that Mr. McLean is going to be the first person asking questions today, but to avoid cutting into his time, I would like to offer him the floor right now for a few minutes to allow him to do what he was trying to do on Monday.

Mr. McLean, again, you have my apologies for the confusion on Monday. It was a misunderstanding on my part. I'm yielding the floor to you to allow you to do what you were going to do on Monday.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I presume we're in a public meeting at this point.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Yes, we are.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

That's good.

I'll read into the record the motion we put on the paper and distributed to all the committee members:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study of the cancellation of the Keystone XL pipeline including (a) the loss of jobs and investment across Canada in all sectors that supply the energy sector, (b) the impact the cancellation of this project will have on the economic recovery from COVID-19 of Canada’s energy sector/natural resource industry; that the committee invite relevant witnesses, including representatives of industries and workers affected, as well as, the Minister of Natural Resources; that the Minister appear for not less than two hours; that these meetings be televised; that six meetings be allocated for this study; and that following this study a report with recommendations be presented to the House of Commons.

That's the motion.

Let me speak to the motion, if I may, Mr. Chair.

We've been through a lot in the energy industry over the last five years, and that includes the cancellation of several projects that were years in the mix. As you know, Mr. Chair, I've only been a member of Parliament for a year and a half. In that year and a half, getting towards common sense about how we approach what's happening in this industry and in the world has been what I think we need to bring to the table.

The recent cancellation of Keystone XL is one in a long list of failures that have happened on our side of the border vis-à-vis constructing infrastructure to get our product to market with our most important trading partner—and that partner, of course, is the United States of America.

I know that the United States is the party that cancelled this pipeline, but it did seem very much like a shrug of the shoulders by this government. It was one more failed infrastructure investment that didn't occur and allow us to get our resource to market. That market we're getting to, of course, is the gulf coast. That gulf coast is essential as a home for the heavy oil produced in Alberta to get the proper pricing.

Infrastructure is constraining us from getting a world price for our resource at this point. That lack of infrastructure translates to a $16-billion-a-year wealth transfer from Canada to the United States, and we should all be standing against that at this point. It matters to this economy, to the Canadian taxpayers, to our future and to every one of these social services that we, as elected representatives, are trying to provide to our constituents. That's not happening right now, and there is no real path forward.

Every path forward we seem to take over the past five years has been stymied. I agree that sometimes it's stymied by a foreign government that we don't seem to be paying enough attention to as far as getting them through the process is concerned, and sometimes it's stymied by our own government. We can look in reverse here over the last year at Keystone XL, which seemed to tick all the boxes, just like Tech Frontier.

These are all projects that are worth thousands of jobs to Canadians, billions of dollars in tax revenue, environmental advances in the way we produce our energy in this country and indigenous participation in the economy in Canada. All of these things have to move forward together, yet every time one of these proponents brings one of these projects to the table and ticks all those boxes so that it looks like it's getting through the process, there's an interruption at some point in time. Suddenly it does not proceed. This has to change.

It's the outlook that has to change, more than anything else, and I humbly submit, Mr. Chair, after being in this job for a year and a half, I feel there does not seem to be an open mind in many of the members on the other side of the aisle. I appreciate that there are still some who are entertaining our need to move forward with resource development in Canada. This is the natural resources committee. We need to look at how we produce resources in this country and how we take advantage of what we have in this country and contribute to the world's goals going forward.

Some of those goals are energy goals and some of those goals are environmental goals, and if you take a look at how much our industry has progressed as far as meeting its environmental commitments is concerned, it's astounding vis-à-vis every other industry in Canada, vis-à-vis every other hydrocarbon industry in the world. We lead on so many of these measures.

In debate in the House of Commons yesterday, the parliamentary secretary had an excellent speech on Line 5, which does appear to be, again, in the mix as far as a cancellation is concerned. That cancellation is going to be disastrous, and not just for the oil flow. It's not just Canadian oil; there's also some U.S. oil that finds its way into that pipe. It is a big conduit of important oil moving towards refining and manufacturing. [Technical difficulty—Editor] We get that raw resource to the markets, we manufacture it, we refine it into finished products and we turn it into things like automobile products.

We're building with the plastics that come out of the finished product at the end of the day. It is a linchpin for our economy. To lose that because a state governor is saying they don't like the environmental effects of a pipeline under the lake.... There's been an easement there for over 60 years. There has never been an accident, yet we're going to have to put the oil on tankers, of all things, as if that eases any of the environmental concerns the lakes are going to face, and we can't seem to get absolute clarity that the government is even paying attention to enforcing, or pushing the U.S. government on enforcing, the transit pipelines treaty from 1977.

There is a lack of attention being paid by the government towards this very important file about getting our resources to market. We need to address that. We need to turn the government's attention towards what is, number one, the biggest wealth generator in this country, which has paid—

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

—all of the bills for how many of our social services for Lord knows how long.

Mr. Chair, are you going to recognize the point of order or do I still have the floor?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I was wondering if you were finished. I was going to let you go, but if you're not, then I'll acknowledge the point of order.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

I'm not finished.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Okay. Mr. Sidhu, you had a point of order?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do know and I'm respectful of the matter, but I also know that the witnesses have taken time to be here and many of us want to hear from the witnesses. It's very important that we hear their testimony. I understand the sincerity and the sensitivity of the matter, but I also want to respect our witnesses.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Thank you, Mr. Sidhu, but this is the first week we've been back in Parliament since Keystone XL was cancelled and this is an important issue for the country, whether you like it or not. The witnesses can wait while we go through this matter, with all due respect. Please, let's continue.

I heard the parliamentary secretary in the House of Commons yesterday talking about this matter, Line 5 being one aspect, and he actually said the opposition raised this issue irresponsibly, that this is something we as the opposition shouldn't deal with in the House of Commons. We raised this matter six times before the government even acknowledged that Line 5 was an issue that they had to deal with. This is the job of opposition—to hold the government to account on the issues that affect our country, the issues that affect our constituents, yet again I see from the parliamentary secretary's words that he doesn't think we should be involved in it. Well, I strongly differ with the parliamentary secretary in that respect.

As a matter of fact, last night I watched Richard Madan on CTV News. He was in the White House asking the same question, and the concerns were raised from the response in the White House that yes, this is something they're looking at. We need to get our team down there and make sure the case is made that this long-standing important infrastructure piece across this country needs to be maintained no matter what. This is something that does not seem to be at the forefront of this government's agenda. It is not irresponsible for the opposition to raise it, and if it's irresponsible for us to raise it, well, God forbid that Richard Madan and CTV News raise it in the White House. Good thing we're on top of it here on one side of Parliament. We'd like to make sure the government side of Parliament actually gets on top of this issue as well, because right now, as with all these issues, it seems to be ignoring it as if these issues don't matter or will just go away. This isn't going away.

This is our most important trade. We make $100 billion a year in our balance of trade with our oil export alone. That's significant value added. For a country that runs a $30-billion plus deficit in the balance of trade, $100 billion is a wallop, and it's the biggest wallop in our budget. When you look at the actual revenue we derive, we've derived almost $600 billion in government revenue in Canada over the last 20 years. That's real cash at the end of the day. Think about where our deficits are now. Think about how we're going to come out of this pandemic, and think about how we're going to address greenhouse gas reduction without this industry, because without this industry, we're capped. This industry reduces more than any other industry out there.

My friends on this committee, I want you to take a good look at this and try to move it forward in the government's mandate here so we're actually paying attention to this issue. It matters very much. Think about that, and think about the failures that have happened over the last five years. Think about Keystone XL if you want to go back a week. Think about Teck's Frontier project. Think about the northern gateway project and the energy east project. Think about TMX and why the government had to step in to buy it because we as a country screwed up a regulatory regime that got a private company to build a pipeline to get our product to market. That is all failure.

Let's look at Line 5. Let's look at Line 3, which is on the table now. Let's get a plan together so we stop failing. The government needs to start caring that they're failing on every file in the energy sector, and they need to start caring about the jobs that we're losing. They need to start caring about the economic outcome and they need to start caring about how we come out of this pandemic at the end of the day.

I've said a lot here, Mr. Chair. The motion's on the table, and I thank you for your time.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you, Mr. McLean, and thank you for tabling your motion and for making your comments.

There are a number of hands up. I have the sequence in which they were raised. There's Mr. Sidhu, Ms. Harder, Mr. Patzer, Mr. May, Mr. Zimmer, Mr. Simard and Mr. Cannings.

Next up is Mr. Sidhu.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to my colleague.

I think, just to be respectful to everyone, we should just vote on this matter and see what the will of the committee is.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Are you calling the question, Mr. Sidhu?

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

I am.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you.

Madam Clerk, I believe we need to vote on the....

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I have a point of order.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

One second, Ms. Harder. The clerk was trying to say something.

1:20 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Hilary Jane Powell

Would you like me to proceed now with the vote, Mr. Chair?

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I'll hear Ms. Harder's point of order first.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, when existing hands are raised, I believe the due course is to hear from those who have their hands up rather than to allow members to call a vote. If you look in the green book, you'll find procedure for this.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

My understanding is that when the question has been called, we have to vote. That's why I turned to the clerk.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Then I would ask the clerk to confer with you on this matter.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Madam Clerk, what is the situation?

1:20 p.m.

The Clerk

Thank you for your patience. We just checked procedure. We can proceed with hearing from other members to continue the debate.