I have one last question.
Evidence of meeting #25 for Natural Resources in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was biomass.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #25 for Natural Resources in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was biomass.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My thanks to all the witnesses for joining us today.
Before I put my first question to Jean-François Samray, I would like to make one thing clear.
Both today and in our last meeting, our honourable colleague Mr. Simard has mentioned that our government has a strategy for grey hydrogen. I just want to be clear about this: we have no strategy for grey hydrogen.
I would like to give Mr. Samray the opportunity to speak a little more about green hydrogen and about our strategy.
Mr. Samray, what specific recommendations do you have on what more we can do to enhance Canada's hydrogen strategy?
2:40 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council
Looking at what is being done elsewhere can sometimes provide good ideas. For example, you can consult the financial information from the UPM paper mill in Finland. The mill was going through some difficulties and the government supported it in research and development. Biofuels are now their leading profit centre. That has allowed the mill to consolidate its investments in the pulp and paper sector and in its forestry operations.
As for hydrogen, it is clear that more and more regions in Canada can have electricity, produce green hydrogen and combine it with biogenic carbon, whether that carbon comes from combustion in paper mills, biomass cogeneration plants, or biomethanization plants. About 36% of the methane coming out of the digesters is from biogenic CO2. These are places where one unit of green hydrogen is added to obtain hydrogen that is just as green. Things like that are really worth looking at.
I really encourage you to read the article that William Nordhaus, who won the Nobel prize for economics, wrote on what he calls the “Climate Club”. You can really see how far Canada can go and how it is in our interests to use such things to our advantage before we find ourselves isolated. We have a huge number of advantages: research and development, territory, biomass, we have it all.
It is up to you, our elected representatives, to come up with policies to support it. That is why we are here today.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you very much.
Mr. Larocque, you were on a roll earlier with my colleague Paul Lefebvre. I wanted to give you another opportunity.
When we talk about the low-carbon fund and we're looking at some of our strategies, you mentioned some of the details. Because we're doing the consultation as we speak, I want to give you the opportunity here to provide the committee with some of your recommendations on some of these funds that we're providing on the renewables side.
2:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Fuels Association
Yes, quickly, just to start, on the low-carbon fuel fund, for example, it's a very good start. I know that Jeremy, Mr. Patzer, was talking about public partnerships. This is just to get us over the hump with provincial plans and the CFR.
Number two, on the low-carbon fuel, we're really pushing the federal government to consider the full infrastructure, not just the production plants. It's needed, but we also need to build the terminals, and we need to provide some help to retail, because they need to upgrade their equipment to be able to sell the B10, B20 and B100, as we heard today. We need to set up the infrastructure. That would be one recommendation that I would make.
The other thing that everyone also needs to.... There are two comments. The net-zero accelerator fund, under the $8 billion, was topped up, and there are some opportunities there for pulp and paper, refining, cement and other sectors to work together. Wouldn't it be nice to use forest residue, bring it into ours, blend it up and have a cement plant use it as a biofuel? You'd have three sectors that would reduce their emissions. That's what I'm talking about: ensuring that the government plan on biofuels is a line across Environment Canada, National Resources Canada and ISED.
Those are the recommendations I would make.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Thurlow, you expanded a bit on this earlier in some of your responses, but I wanted you to talk further, in the probably 30 seconds I have left here, about our government's decision to focus on transportation fuels as opposed to the industrial fuels. Can you expand on that, please?
2:45 p.m.
Senior Advisor, Government Affairs, Dow Canada
Certainly. That was heralded throughout industry as a good decision.
The primary reason it's a good decision is that the carbon price under the OBPS will allow for competitiveness to be taken into consideration, and energy-intensive and trade-exposed industries will not have the same regulatory burden under that price as they would have under a dedicated clean fuel standard, we'll call it, for industry.
The other thing that I would add to something Mr. Larocque said—
2:45 p.m.
Senior Advisor, Government Affairs, Dow Canada
—is that natural gas is a very good substitute fuel for a lot of the other solid fuels that have a much higher carbon intensity.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Okay. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Serré.
Mr. Simard, we'll go back to you for two and a half minutes, please.
2:45 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to quickly go back to a phrase used by Mr. Samray. Mr. Kumar can also feel free to join in.
Mr. Samray, in an answer to my friend Mr. Serré, you talked about seeing how far Canada can go.
Mr. Kumar said that we have major potential in biomass. I am interested in finding out how government action can support that major potential.
Let me give you an example and you can tell me if I am wrong.
I know that, in the 1970s, we did not have the technology we needed to make the oil sands profitable. It took a major investment from the federal government in research and development to successfully make that technology available.
Do you think that we could consider similar government action in order to develop the technologies required for biomass?
Both Mr. Samray and Mr. Kumar can answer my question.
2:50 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council
I think that would be in everyone's interest.
I gave Finland and UPM as an example. They consolidated a sector that was already in place and was needed in order to build more wooden buildings. The wood used in that construction is carbon negative.
The best way to protect industries from certain commercial fall-out is to support their research and development and to help them position themselves in the market by developing new products.
Given the size of our forests, I sincerely believe that Canada has everything to gain by developing new technologies. Bioenergy is part of that, in that it fits into our value chains.
2:50 p.m.
Professor and Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada Industrial Research Chair in Energy and Environmental Systems Engineering, University of Alberta, As an Individual
If I can add to what was said, I mentioned there is large potential, and that potential comes from some of the feedstocks that I talked about that are not being used—forest residues or straw, which currently is mostly not being used. Also, if you look at just the amount of biomass that we cut, the whole tree, in different provinces there are different regulations, but if I think about annual allowable cut, how much is allowed to be cut every year, typically, if you look at that over the years—10 years, 15 years—you will see that is still about 50% to 60% of the total annual allowable cut.
If there are regulations that make it mandatory to use a small percentage of that for biofuels or even making these residues available for bioindustry—if there is some kind of regulation that helps in doing that—it will help to get the secure supply of biomass to convert to biofuels.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
2:50 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Serré ended up asking Mr. Larocque the questions I had lined up for him. I'm going to turn back to Mr. Gustafson and go back to canola.
I'm just trying to drill down on this, the routes that canola takes or the end uses of canola that we produce here in Canada. A large proportion, as you say, is exported. Do you know the end uses of that canola, the export canola, the canola we send to the United States or Asia? What proportion of that is used for fuels versus cooking oil, that kind of...?
2:50 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Covenant Energy Ltd.
I don't know the stats off the top of my head. I do know that anything we export goes into the edible market and renewable fuels—largely it has to do with how it's refined at the different crushers. Obviously, if you're looking at an RBD canola oil, that's largely going more into the edible markets, and most of the stuff that went offshore was a crude super degummed oil that was bound more for the biofuels market. It depends on what type of oil and where it was going, but certainly, those are the two main destinations.
2:50 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
You also mentioned aviation fuel. I remember a news story a couple of years ago. I think it was Qantas that did a flight from North America to Australia. I forget the details, but they were using aviation fuel that was, I believe, made from canola or at least a blend. Someone did a calculation of how many acres of farmland had gone into that flight.
I'm just wondering if you could comment on the prospect of using canola for aviation fuel in terms of how much production we need to make a meaningful dent in the aviation fuel that we need or will need in the future.
2:50 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Covenant Energy Ltd.
Yes, absolutely. One of the first things to say is that—and it's something that I'm very proud of—Canada is one of the best canola-producing countries in the world, if not the best, and Saskatchewan is a very huge part of that canola production. We produce a lot of it. We have the capacity, as I said. The government is trying to push to go from 10 million tonnes of crush capacity up to a 14 million or 15 million tonnes of crush capacity. We're looking at trying to add an extra two million tonnes of oil to the idea.
I do think that canola oil can play a very big part in the production of sustainable aviation fuel. Certainly some of the tests that are going on are proving to be very effective in emissions reductions, and when you look at the way the industry is going, you have announcements from massive companies like Boeing saying they're going to have 100% renewable aircrafts by 2030. The bottom line is that the industry is moving very aggressively towards sustainable aviation fuel, and we feel that canola oil can play a very big part in that.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you, Mr. Gustafson, and thank you, Mr. Cannings.
We'll now go over to Mr. McLean.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
I'll take the second half of this. Mr. Patzer can start off the questions.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Yes. I'll be splitting my time with Greg.
I'll go back to Mr. Gustafson, with two quick questions.
How many acres, every year, is it going to take to meet the demand you spoke of for one year's worth of fuel from your plant?