Evidence of meeting #27 for Natural Resources in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was green.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON
Thank you very much, everybody, for all that you're bringing to the table today.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
2:10 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Goyette, I believe you wanted to add something earlier, but unfortunately we ran out of time. So I'm going to give you the opportunity to do that now. But before I do, I just want to make a quick point, which Mr. Kirby can comment on after you speak.
My impression is that the Canadian hydrogen strategy is trying to decarbonize the oil and gas sector, when we have resources like hydroelectricity and biomass that are far less carbon intensive.
Do you believe we should be promoting hydrogen production from hydroelectricity and biomass, which leaves a much smaller carbon footprint?
I will now let you finish what you were going to say earlier.
2:10 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, H2 V Energies Inc.
As I said in my statement, we consider that the hydrogen that H2 V Energies produces from biomass uses 5.25 times less electricity than any equivalent electrolysis process.
From the outset, this allows us to make hydrogen much less expensive. We were wondering earlier, and I didn't really go into it, whether a green hydrogen molecule costs more than a grey hydrogen molecule. Strangely enough, they are getting closer in price.
If we want to produce renewable natural gas, we need to focus on exporting hydrogen and transporting it in natural gas pipelines, because currently there's a huge demand for it.
Our advantage at H2 V Energies is that we produce hydrogen from biomass, which itself produces electricity. Why do we use 5.25 times less electricity? Because biomass already produces electricity. Yes, our hydrogen costs less than the projected price of $4 U.S. by 2030, and yes, we are closer to the emerging markets.
If Canada wants to be a leader, we need to think about reducing greenhouse gases. But let me remind you that two factors play a role in reducing those gases.
First, biohydrogen production brings carbon credits. Now H2 V Energies can conduct its own carbon marketing. Second, when we reduce biomass, that also creates carbon credits.
That's how H2 V Energies manages to mass-produce hydrogen cheaper than any other process on the market. We cost less in electricity, biomass produces electricity for us, and we get more carbon credits than any other industry that produces carbon equivalents.
With this in mind, we need to promote mass production of hydrogen. The more we produce in a—
2:10 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, H2 V Energies Inc.
I mentioned Rotterdam earlier—
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
2:10 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
Monsieur Goyette brought up the subject of exports. I was at a G20 energy meeting a couple of years ago. The German minister there mentioned that one of their main strategies around this grand transition to a low-carbon future was to invest in renewable energy projects around the world and then transport that energy in the form of hydrogen. They mentioned projects in Chile, etc. The Japanese minister also mentioned this possibility.
I'd like to ask you, Mr. Kirby, for an overall answer about the place that export might have in a Canadian hydrogen industry. How can we take advantage of some of the obvious renewable energy sources we have, such as the hydro sources in B.C., Quebec, Manitoba, etc., and maybe play into that? I think Monsieur Goyette mentioned Germany specifically.
2:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association
To Germany I would add Japan and Korea, which are also very significant markets. We're well positioned to service them from B.C., as we're well positioned to serve the European market out of Quebec and the Atlantic provinces. It's an enormous opportunity.
We are already exporting. We're exporting hydrogen, as we are clean chemicals. We're using our clean hydrogen to produce such things as methanol and exporting that, and ammonia. We also have two major clean liquid hydrogen plants in Quebec that are exporting hydrogen down to the U.S. as we speak. It is certainly a very large opportunity. We need to be tackling it as a nation, developing the brand for Canada, and showing that we are in the market seriously.
We can look at what Australia has done. Australia has no further advantage than Canada in terms of production capability of clean hydrogen. They've positioned themselves globally as being the preferred destination. They have come out and said, “We're your supplier. We're willing to do what it takes to get you the clean hydrogen that you're going to need.” I think Canada needs to take a page from that book. They need to be responsive to their customers. If customers want hydrogen derived from renewable power, we need to make that and to make that available. We're well positioned to do that. If they are looking for the lowest-cost clean hydrogen, we can do that with our fossil fuel hydrogen.
I think we are well positioned to do it, but we really need to start working together, not targeting one type of hydrogen or another but targeting clean hydrogen and reacting to what our customers want. I think we can do that. Now, I would—
2:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal James Maloney
Thank you, Mr. Kirby. I'm going to have to stop you there.
Thanks, Mr. Cannings.
We will now go to Mr. Patzer for five minutes.
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'm going to begin with Ms. Green.
You mentioned in your opening remarks that you work with a lot of different farmers, municipalities and organizations. I serve a large rural riding in Saskatchewan, and I'm curious to know, with an organization like yours, what benefits you bring to the farmers of a riding like mine.
2:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Biogas Association
Between the agriculture and municipal sectors, as I mentioned, I think there are a lot of untapped resources that can be used to be able to create biogas and renewable natural gas. Our association helps to lend some education, to inform and to connect people with those valuable questions with a very talented group of experts within our membership, so it's being able to provide resources to those farmers.
Recently, the Canadian Biogas Association launched our farming biogas initiative on farmingbiogas.ca. Within that, there are resources, like checklists, frequently asked questions, different assessment tools, that farmers can use to understand how these kinds of systems can work with their existing farm operations to be able to diversify and to provide value-added resources to the sector.
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Specifically, do you work more with cattle operations or grain operations, or both? If you're working with grain operations, is there a specific crop that is more beneficial than others?
2:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Biogas Association
There is no specific demarcation on commodity. Farmers writ large, whether they are within dairy, pork, poultry, beef or the cash crop area, all of those agriculture resources as well as crop residues can be utilized as feedstocks for biogas and RNG derivations.
2:20 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
One of the emerging problems in rural Canada, in particular in my riding, is that a lot of these towns were built at the same time. The infrastructure for either waste water or for their landfills is becoming outdated and they need to be replaced, but the cost is extremely prohibitive.
Is there any potential for an organization like yours, for what you guys are doing, to partner with these towns, with the municipalities, to help get these new facilities put in place? Would it be incorporated hand in hand with an organization like yours to capture and make biofuel?
2:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Biogas Association
I definitely think that you're bang on in terms of recognizing dated infrastructure. Many municipalities, for example, are investigating what their options look like in terms of how they need to upgrade and improve, recognizing all of the pressure points on environmental energy policies and trends.
We can definitely provide support in terms of, as I said, creating those networks, which are essential, and being able to expand on that information and education. We're definitely open to seeing how we can continue to advance the conversations.
2:20 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
One thing we've been hearing so far in this study, too, is that there's a push towards more canola utilization for biofuels going forward.
There was an article written recently in the Western Producer saying that 4.6 million tonnes of canola is going to be needed to meet the crushing demand of these three plants that are going to be put in place in Saskatchewan. However, the issue is we're hearing that acres are maxed out, and when you look at the trends, the bushels per acre are actually going down.
I'm wondering where you see the issue there. Are there any potential problems with trying to boost canola production at the risk of either losing other cash crops that are being grown or having to convert other types of land to be used for canola for this sake?
2:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Biogas Association
That's a great question.
I would say there's one distinction there, in that many of the biogas and RNG resources that are created are actually founded from waste materials as opposed to purpose-grown derived materials. When we're looking at the biogas and RNG resource, it's generally coming from agricultural livestock or residues, as well as municipal green bin materials and that type of thing.
In the liquid biofuels, that's a very different stream and a different process, but when we're looking at the gaseous side, looking at the opportunity to derive that from waste materials is where we've currently set our focus.
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses. We need more time. There's a lot of good expertise here.
Mr. Cannings talked about the hubs and growing that. Mr. Cannings will remember in the last Parliament that we talked about hubs and clusters in the mining industry. We have four regional hubs in Canada: B.C., Saskatchewan, northern Ontario and Quebec.
Mr. May asked Ms. Quan and Mr. Kirby a question.
The issue of hubs is really finding ways to reduce that cost of hydrogen and having companies working together on a scale here.
I'm going to ask Robert Artibise and Norm Goyette questions.
Norm, you mentioned the clusters, the gap, the regional circular economy. What can the government do to expand and support this?
Monsieur Artibise, you talked about building one hydrogen facility to support North America. How does that fit into a hub and cluster strategy?
We'll have Mr. Goyette and then Mr. Artibise.
2:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, H2 V Energies Inc.
In terms of the regional circular economy, we know that all Canadian provinces have tons of biomass with which to produce hydrogen.
We will inject $70 million into Quebec's circular economy and eliminate 960,000 tons of greenhouse gases each year. If we increased the number of plants producing hydrogen from biomass by a factor of 10, we would reduce greenhouse gas emissions for all of Canada.