Natural Resources Committee on June 14th, 2021

[Don Romano]

It isn't, and that's a challenge, which is why hydrogen fuel cells make so much more sense. Unfortunately, there are very few battery manufacturers right now, but that footprint will grow over time. We will see more and more batteries being developed here in North America.

Until then, you're going to find that the lithium, the cobalt and the zinc—all of the materials that go into those batteries—are coming from all over the world, and I would not say that they are coming to us in an ecologically friendly manner. That is an area that has incredible opportunity for improvement, but at the same time, there are limited resources in anything that we produce, other than hydrogen.

The battery size in hydrogen vehicles isn't a whole lot larger than what you're going to find in your car. Because hydrogen is flowing over a membrane and creating electricity while you're on the move, it's constantly charging the battery that's being used to run the engine. It makes a lot of sense from a number of aspects. One, obviously, is that less battery means less mining of minerals across different areas where we have less control over the way those products are being mined—

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay. Are you going to correct your statement from earlier, though? You said your EV vehicles are zero emission—not even net-zero emission, but just zero emission. I'm wondering if you could make that distinction quickly here.

[Don Romano]

I would say that the production of anything.... Nothing is zero emission. There is no such thing as zero emissions in the production of anything. For those vehicles that are driving right now, my point is that there's nothing coming out of the tailpipe. That was my point in saying that these vehicles are zero emission. I'm not including the production of them. I'm not including the production of the batteries or the vehicles themselves. I'm just talking about the vehicles themselves on the road.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Has your company done a life-cycle emissions review of the process from the beginning of the mining and manufacturing process to the end-of-life analysis of what's going to happen to these vehicles and these batteries when they're expired?

[Don Romano]

We were the first company in Canada to make a statement that we have actually contracted with two battery recycling companies to handle the end of life of our batteries. One is here in Ontario, in Kingston, and the other is up in Quebec.

In fact, we are replacing batteries today that we don't feel are operating at an optimal level. Those batteries are now currently going to Canadian factories that are managing the recycling.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you.

My next question would be this: On average, how much heavier are your EV cars compared to a standard car that you would have bought prior to an EV car?

[Don Romano]

I couldn't answer that question. I'm sorry, but I don't know the actual weight of an EV.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Has your company done any studies on the impacts it's going to have on our highway infrastructure? The reason I'm asking is that I'm from a rural riding where there are some primary weight highways, but there are a lot of secondary weight highways and a ton of gravel grid road infrastructure out there, and the heavier load is going to have a huge impact overall, especially over time, on our infrastructure.

Has your company looked into any of that?

[Don Romano]

No, I'm sorry, it has not, and I couldn't answer the question on that.

That is something I'd be glad to get back to you on. On the difference in weight between an electric vehicle and a non-electric combustion engine ICE vehicle, there are many different variations, but most of our electric vehicles are relatively small and most of our combustion engine vehicles are relatively large.

Canadians are buying, for the most part, big trucks as well as big SUVs when it comes to combustion engines. When they buy electric vehicles, they buy smaller cars, smaller SUVs. I think if you were to look at it from that perspective.... I'd have to do the analysis and get back to you.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I just saw something about how the Ford F-150 truck is going to be 1,600 pounds, on average, heavier than their regular F-150. I think there's a Volvo—an XC60, I think it is, and I might have the wrong model—that's about a 1,000 pounds heavier on average. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on the impacts that's going to have.

[Don Romano]

We produce a Kona EV, which is relatively small, and we're also coming out with an IONIQ 5, but it's a good question and I apologize for not having the answer.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thanks, Mr. Patzer.

We go now to Mr. Lefebvre for five minutes.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Roy.

At the end of your presentation, you started listing your recommendations, and then you were asked to wrap up quickly. Could you tell us about them briefly, in a few minutes?

You have examined the situation. In addition, you have heard the excellent testimony we have had today. We are doing some very worthwhile work.

Could you quickly talk to us about solutions you are foreseeing for this transition?

[Dr. Jacques Roy]

Like the other witnesses, I think emphasis should be placed on heavy trucks over the short term. That is sort of my favourite subject. I can volunteer to carry out a prefeasibility study. It is very well to say that focus will be placed on heavy trucks, but how can that be done?

I am very familiar with the trucking industry. I think conversations must be had with key industry players to understand their needs and their reservations about electric trucks. They must be convinced that hydrogen is a solution. All this will not happen on its own. Demonstration projects must be developed, like the one carried out in Alberta. I have spoken to the president of Trimac, and he would be more than happy to carry out the same kind of an experiment in the Montreal–Toronto corridor. I think that is where we should start.

The government can play a role, along with other industry partners, to encourage those kinds of experiments and demonstration projects. It must be understood that people naturally have reservations about hydrogen. They think it is dangerous and don't believe in it. That is why these kinds of projects must be carried out.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

The investment risk must clearly be minimized. The government has a role to play in that regard.

Mr. Moore, you talked about hydrogen pipelines.

We heard from a lot of witnesses about the importance of having hubs because of the challenges of transporting hydrogen.

Can you explain to us your infrastructure that exists in Alberta right now on the hydrogen pipeline side, and how you're moving hydrogen around?

[Simon Moore]

Could I just confirm that the question was for me?

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Yes, Mr. Moore.

[Simon Moore]

Great.

Every day we move hydrogen via pipelines. We move liquid hydrogen via trucks. We move gaseous hydrogen via trucks. Again, I don't believe we see a single answer being the right answer for every situation. Our existing infrastructure today moves very significant quantities of hydrogen from our three production plants to our customers in the refining, chemical and petrochemical industries—

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Sorry, but I have very little time. I just want to understand that infrastructure.

You said they were around 50 kilometres in distance. How long can you go? Can you go 500 kilometres? What are the challenges, and are there any opportunities there?

[Simon Moore]

In the U.S. gulf coast we operate an almost 1,000-kilometre hydrogen pipeline. There's no magic limit to it. It's economically driven. You need to have customers in order for it to make sense to run that pipeline. There's no practical limitation to it. That's what we do today. Of course, there's a network of customers there to support that length of hydrogen pipeline.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Romano, I would like to discuss with you the cost of a battery vehicle versus a fuel cell vehicle.

We talk about being agnostic, I guess, as we move forward. Certainly we have combustion engines and battery vehicles and fuel cell vehicles. We're not agnostic yet, but I would like to hear how you as a carbon manufacturer would see the challenge. Do you see that in five to 10 years it will become more agnostic?

[Don Romano]

No, I think your question is exactly right. Five to 10 years versus today has to do with economies of scale.

Right now the cost of a fuel cell vehicle is far greater than the cost of an EV. The cost of an EV is greater than the cost of a combustion engine vehicle, but when you look at the components required to build an EV, long term it is going to be more cost-effective. It's going to be priced lower than a combustion engine vehicle if it's the same content, item for item,.

When you take a look at electric vehicles, you see that they have a lot of other features that are being put into them, especially the safety features right now that are coming in, or the ability to create a sound so people know the car is coming up on them. We continue to make advancements in that area.

For hydrogen vehicles, it's the same. Right now hydrogen vehicles are extremely expensive to manufacture because right now we sell 10 hydrogen vehicles a year. We sell 4,000 to 5,000 EVs and we sell 120,000 gas vehicles. When you put that together, there's quite a difference.

If we put the infrastructure in place to overcome the concerns that consumers have over range and over charging, whether it's fuel cell or electric vehicle, we're going to find that the cost is going to go right back to the same level that we see for cars today. There will be no difference over a long period of time, but we have had a lot of support from the government to provide incentives to get people into zero-emission vehicles, and that's what's bridging the gap right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Mr. Lefebvre.

It's over to Mr. Simard for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry, Mr. Moore, you will find me annoying, but I have another simple short question for you.

I recently read in an article that the strategy used for decarbonizing the production of blue and green hydrogen consisted in burying the carbon, but that there was no guarantee, technically speaking, that carbon leakage would not occur sooner or later.

To your knowledge, is the technology used to sequester carbon now efficient?