Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 11th, 2020

[Jean-François Tremblay, Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources]

Actually, for the CER, if you look at the mains, for example, the funding that is provided is actually lower than last year. There was a bit more in the funding at [Inaudible-Editor] but just to stabilize the organization's operations and improvement, especially now that they will have to take a bigger role in the context of the—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

Okay. We'll ask the question again in a second, please. I've still got more questions for the minister.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

Okay.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

Secondly, you talked here in your remarks about the United States having the “most sweeping environmentalist administration the United States has ever seen”, with this administration, and yet they have no carbon tax. They have no clean fuel standard. They have a 45Q allowing carbon capture, utilization and storage, natural gas proliferation in production, and oil almost doubled in the last decade.

How do you square it that this is a trade partner we're going to have to be competitive with and yet we layer significant costs into our industry in Canada?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Chair, I would say that they are not in office yet, so the policies that they're espousing and the commitments that this incoming president has made are obviously not enacted. Not to get into the minutiae of it all, but we don't know how things will go in Georgia. There could be a considerable conflict, I think, on this between Congress and the White House, but we're listening to people on the ground.

Again, the governments of Alberta and Canada are working hand-in-glove in D.C. through our embassy and through Mr. Rajotte to get a clear view of where we see things going. I often quote Gretzky, who said, you've got to skate to where the puck is going—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

Yes, so are you saying we're going to stay far ahead of their environmental plans in order to keep our industry up?

Minister, on the clean fuel standard, which it leads to—

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

No, I think what you're describing is the way things are now but not where they could be very soon. That's what we have to anticipate.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

Well, okay, “could be”, but you take a clean fuel standard and what it means. You've met with these same groups that I have in the energy industry and other industries: 90% of them say it will lead to carbon leakage because they're moving their jobs offshore. How do you justify that with a trade partner that we're supposed to be on par with?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

As I said, we know very well that the farm lobby is hitting this administration and that others are hitting this administration to talk about a clean fuel standard. One thing we would like to be able to do is to be clear-eyed about where the administration is going to align itself, to make sure that we are aligned so that it is a level playing field. We do not want to hinder our companies, either, if this administration looks at us and says, “You could do a lot more.”

One thing I have learned, even during NAFTA-plus, is that the trade representatives from the United States are extremely aggressive. They have been aggressive in going one way. They can quickly turn and go aggressively in another way, demanding a lot more from our governments and from our industry on lowering emissions, and we have to prepare ourselves for that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

Yes, thank you, Minister.

One thing you talked about here, of course, was the farm lobby; you just came up with it here. The farm lobby in the States is a lobby that lobbies for its own economic benefit, like so many of the industries that lobby the governments in Canada and the U.S. Now obviously, that lobbying is happening in Canada, too.

Biofuels in particular is about the only group you and I have met with, probably jointly, that says, “Yes, long term we might bring jobs back to Canada, but we're a net importer significantly of biofuels right now and will be for the foreseeable future”, as you can see from every U.S. piece that looks at this and says, “This is going to be a gold mine for American farmers for the next 10 years.”

How do you justify that in the context that biofuels themselves produce a lot of greenhouse gas in their full life cycle? It takes 1.6 units of energy to produce one unit of energy in the biofuels industry. Square the circle for me, please, Mr. Minister.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Ultimately it will lower emissions, and not only is it important that we do that domestically, but, I would make the argument, particularly when, as I said, our number one competitor and our number one customer is about to pivot in a very dramatic fashion. It is very important reputationally that we demonstrate to this administration that we are doing everything we possibly can to lower emissions. We do not want a reputational risk here, either. They need to know that we are—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

Finish quickly, Minister.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

—an incredible provider.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

Thank you. That's the end of my round.

Next on the list is Mr. Weiler.

First, I have a point of order from Mr. May.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I mentioned this before your questions, but by my clock we're now well past an hour with the minister.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

Yes, so Minister, we have to—

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I'm not done, sir. The minister has been very gracious with his time today. He's now had an hour and 35 minutes with us. I know he has other priorities today. I'm just wondering if maybe you can share with us exactly, by your clock, how much time is left.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

Yes, maybe I can do this with you, Mr. May, and I'll seek the minister's blessing on this first of all. Because I was the speaker in this round, I was going to give a speaking round to Mr. Weiler and then Mr. Cannings and Mr. Simard, if the minister's available.

Minister, would an extra 15 minutes suit your time today?

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Excuse me, this isn't fair, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

Actually, it's a polite question.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

The minister was very gracious to extend the time to be here for an entire hour. We're well past that point. To put him on the spot to make this call now, I think, is not appropriate.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

I appreciate his time and I appreciate your intervention here.

Minister, would you like to leave?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It's not a matter of liking to leave, Mr. Chair. It's, unfortunately, having to leave. Because of the technical delays, I've already kept a number of people waiting.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Greg McLean]

All right.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I am grateful. I think we did get our full hour. I'm grateful for the interventions that were made by the committee.