Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 9th, 2024

[Rueben George]

I'm sorry. Can you say the last bit again, please?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You said that this project should have been denied because it violates the principles of rate-making and fails to meet the standards set out in the Canadian Energy Regulator Act of being “just and reasonable”.

Why would they have approved it?

[Rueben George]

That's the million, or I should say, the $17-billion to $20-billion question here.

We've been saying all along that it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to Tsleil-Waututh, to the Vancouver people or to the British Columbian people, who are taking all the risk and receiving the least benefit from it. It's a big problem. I agree it should not have been....

I'm happy to include this in the information that we're going to send you.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The other thing that I find really shocking—we're not going to talk about this as a carbon bomb tonight—is the fact that this massive increase in bitumen burning is going to have a huge destabilizing impact and vastly increase emissions.

I want to ask you about TMX's climate plan in case there's a climate disaster. Look at what happened in the Fraser River. Look at what's happening with with the landslides and the fires.

Under their toll plan, they were supposed to have a plan that justifies the burdens, including infringement of aboriginal rights, oil spill risks, climate impacts and protection of endangered species, yet you're saying in your report that they don't have the money to cover off impacts from climate-caused catastrophes.

Doesn't that just sum up everything about TMX?

[Rueben George]

Yes, it does.

We went to the insurance companies and they backed out when we explained some of these problems, which are exactly what you're talking about.

We don't have to look very far. Exxon Valdez is still a mess over 30 years later. It's still a mess. That's not to mention all the people who took them to court, who were cleaning with that toxic foam they were spraying. All of them tried to sue, but it was delayed and delayed and all those people ended up dying. None of them were compensated. None of them got anything back from that.

We have so much to worry about here, especially with the work that we're doing. Like I said, we've really enhanced what we have here. It's one of the busiest ports here. We've been doing clam harvests because we've been cleaning the inlet. The salmon count was up. We reintroduced elk into our territory. We brought back grizzly bears, wolves and flowers and started to complete the ecosystem. One disaster will ruin all that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. George. Thank you so much for that.

[Rueben George]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Colleagues, we're going to go with a shortened round of four-four and two-two, so that we can finish right on time.

Go ahead, Mr. Falk.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I want to ask Chief Meguinis some questions, but before I do that I want to agree with Mr. George on several things.

I want to thank you for your testimony. I do agree with you that the government should never have bought the TMX project. It should have left it alone.

I'm as frustrated as you are that there have been 20 billion extra dollars spent on that project. We need a full accounting, and someone needs to be accountable for that money. It's a shame. You are right. Today the Canadian taxpayer is on the hook for that, and that needs to be resolved.

I'm in full agreement with those comments you made. The government should have stayed out of the oil business, and it should have left it up to private enterprise.

Chief Meguinis, I'd like to ask you some questions, if I may. Thank you so much for coming.

Before I start, I have one quick question. You said that we call you “indigenous”. What would you like to be called?

[Travis Meguinis]

That's not for me to decide, but as a surviving descendant member of Tsuut'ina, in English we always refer ourselves as the real human beings.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That's not the question, but you just made that comment, and I wanted some clarity there. I didn't want to misrepresent you.

Our first two presenters at our committee meeting today, Mr. Sproule, from the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, and Mr. McKenzie, from Cenovus, both indicated the significant contributions indigenous peoples have made to the construction of this project but also the significant benefits they're going to experience and realize.

First of all, do you agree with that, and could you expand a little bit on that, please?

[Travis Meguinis]

Just to touch on that, I myself am here to give testimony in regard to the Trans Mountain pipeline and our work on the Trans Mountain pipeline. Both of those individuals have big jobs, just like all of you sitting here. You're trying to make sense, to make everything work and go forward. Our job was to try to engage on the TMX, engage the first nations. We did that with our own monies. We literally spent millions, with allies we have from industry. The starting point was through our ceremonies.

To Mr. George, now, my brother there, there's no disrespect, but our people on the prairies have been living amongst oil and gas, and we've never really had our fingerprint, our footprint on oil and gas, the development of it. However, our people have stories and legends of it, teachings that are still alive and well in our homes today.

There are things that we can do to formulate.... Again, this is what the Red Nation does. We blaze trails, and we can blaze trails on healing. All of us are human beings. We come from mother earth. We get a cut; we heal. It's the same with the planet that we live on. It's the same with the sun—she heals. Mother earth will heal.

With that, I can say, as far as economics go, no, we've never asked or engaged industry to fill our pockets, to do engagement, but we're at the table and we're willing to hear what kind of path we can develop so that all the issues that are happening on the coast....

Again, I speak to different points here. Tsleil-Waututh is a powerful nation. I've seen their area. It's pristine. Go out there and see their area, but come to my area too. My area is on the prairies, and you look out to the Rockies. In Treaty No. 7 on the prairies, you can see for miles. They say that long ago only the brave lived out in the open.

With that, I thank you.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Falk, your time's up. Thank you.

We're going to go to Mr. Jowhari.

Go ahead, you have four minutes.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I think we're going to....

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Okay. Mrs. Romanado, go ahead. Thank you for joining us at committee.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Through you, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

I'm not a regular member of this committee, but I actually found it very interesting to be participating today and to welcome the two perspectives. What I heard today actually captures exactly how Canadians are feeling about this project. Like all of you, we have different perspectives.

I'm from the province of Quebec.

I agree with my colleague Mr. Simard: I too would like to receive additional information from Mr. George.

Balancing very different perspectives is something, I think, Mr. Meguinis, you spoke about.

I'm also the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Emergency Preparedness and was heavily involved in the evacuations for the wildfires and so on. To see the devastation of our planet, in terms of these natural catastrophes that have been amplified by climate change....

I would like to give you an opportunity, Mr. Meguinis, to help us with your perspective, in terms of finding that balance. You spoke about that balance, and I think that would be something that would be most welcome to this committee, to hear a little bit about the project.

[Travis Meguinis]

With the balance, it becomes a lot of hard work—I'll put it that way. In anything that you do in life, there is a balance of hard work, determination and boundaries that one must cross.

I sit here today and I speak in English. It's not my first language, and I apologize to my elders that I don't speak in my mother tongue, my father tongue, to everybody here. The balance that we do see and talk about, again, will come from the natural laws, ceremonies and the things that we believe are holy and sacred. Jeremy talked about that earlier.

It would be nice if we can have that type of engagement from the other side coming to our side as well. Let's just say it: There are a lot of things that happen. The wildfires.... You make a comment there and I feel for the families who have their homes burnt up and destroyed. They say a lot of these fires come from people coming out from the city and not understanding wilderness. The ones who are doing the due diligence to let the people come out and enjoy hiking, we have to engage with them. We have to ask ourselves why these people are going out there throwing a cigarette? A lot of these wildfires are happening from that.

The respect to the land is something that we carry. It's understanding—again, I always go back to this—the creation stories. We have that connection to the cosmos, to the stars, sun, moon, mother earth and to all things that matter, that live, ones that walk, swim, fly, crawl and grow. We have that connection.

Thank you.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

Monsieur Simard has passed his time over to Mr. Morrice.

Go ahead.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I want to start by thanking Mr. Simard.

Thank you, Charlie, as well.

Mr. George, you spoke a bit about theatrics. I want to start by saying thank you to you and Chief Meguinis as well. I think what I've heard from both of you, throughout the last hour, is coming from your hearts. I think this place is better when we have that.

I also think, Mr. George, you asked a question of us in your testimony about our perspective. I want to start briefly on that.

I live quite far from the pipeline. I live all the way out in Ontario. For me, the decision to purchase the pipeline—days after this government affirmed that we were, in fact, in a climate emergency—is one of the reasons why I decided to run. It was devastating for me at that time, but I don't live near the pipeline the way you and your ancestors have for time immemorial.

I admire the advocacy that your nation has pressed for so many years. I'm also mindful that this committee heard, for the second meeting in a row—this time from oil and gas CEOs—their quotes, “this project is an undeniable win”. One of them wasn't sure if CO2 caused climate change at all, but he thought that Canada will enjoy the benefits of TMX for decades to come. It's a critical piece of infrastructure. Meanwhile, you've called it economic smallpox.

I was wondering, Mr. George, if you could reflect on what we've heard today from these CEOs. What does that bring up for you?

[Rueben George]

It's baffling to me, the state of where we are today and where we continue to go. These tragedies are for sure not the new norm. It will progressively get worse. We have a hurricane right now in the southwest United States that's causing havoc. I mentioned the fires. I mentioned all this.

What I think of, Mr. Morrice, is what my grandfather would think, Chief Dan George, if I tried to explain to him that there were 434 fires in British Columbia in one day at once, what an atmospheric river was, how the floods and the landslides cut off Vancouver from the rest of Canada for months or these hurricanes that are happening, the change of weather, the ice melting or even to have him witness how the tides here have changed since his lifetime.

I spoke multiple times at the United Nations, and many scientists explained how fossil fuels are responsible for this. Not to try to do something about it and not to try to move forward...and not just as an industry but also as leaders of Canada. I just explained it—$180 million for a hydrogen plant with 200 trucks with 100% green hydrogen. We could move in that direction. We would be leaders in the world of green energy if we took that money and spent it on something else.

It's baffling. Do you know what I think of? Everybody who's speaking, including them, are part of the human race. They're incapable of making sound decisions for themselves and their future generations. I'm doing my best to do that for them to make sure our future generations have something.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. George.

I want to thank both witnesses for their testimony today and for appearing for the study. If you would like to provide an additional brief, you can please send that in directly to the clerk. Thank you for joining us today. I look forward to seeing you again.

As a reminder, colleagues, for the study of Canada's electricity grid and network, please submit your suggested drafting instructions and recommendations for the report no later than Friday, October 11, at 4 p.m.

That concludes the meeting. The meeting is adjourned.