Evidence of meeting #109 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tmx.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
But you haven't reduced. You've continued to increase emissions. Everyone else has done their part—
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
—but you continue to rise. It's a lot higher than 25%, so don't play games with us.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
Mr. Angus, I just want to get Mr. McKenzie to finish.
Mr. McKenzie, in five to 10 seconds, please wrap up.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Cenovus Energy Inc.
I think the only thing we were trying to highlight, Mr. Angus, is that this is a very complex issue that requires not just an environmental lens and perspective, but it also requires an economic, political and geopolitical lens as well. We need complex solutions for complex problems.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
Thank you, Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Sproule, for coming to committee today and testifying. If you would like to provide the clerk any additional information, you can do so via a brief sent to the committee clerk.
Thank you once again.
Colleagues, we will now suspend for a few minutes and get our next panel set up.
Green
Green
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
I call this meeting back to order.
I would now like to welcome our witnesses for the second hour today. From Red Nation Natural Law Energy, Travis Meguinis, commander-in-chief. Also joining us with Red Nation Natural Law Energy is Brittany Thomas, executive administrator. From the Tsleil-Waututh Nation we have Mr. Reuben George, spokesperson, sacred trust initiative, by video conference.
You have up to five minutes for your opening statements.
I use this yellow card for a 30-second warning, and the red card signals that time's up. I'll try not to cut you off mid-sentence.
Mr. George, we will begin with you. You have five minutes. Please go ahead.
Rueben George Spokesperson, Sacred Trust Initiative, Tsleil-Waututh Nation
Hello, everyone. I'm Rueben George from Tsleil-Waututh Nation.
[Witness spoke in hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓]
[English]
I'm sitting here in my territory, and right across from me is the TMX terminal. Tsleil-Waututh people hold a sacred and legal obligation to protect, defend and steward the water, lands and air resources of our territory for all generations. The nation does this through asserting and exercising governance and stewardship rights. It is our obligation to restore the health of our inlet.
It is no secret that TWN, my nation, is opposed to TMX. We've been following the project for 10-plus years and have participated in numerous processes to advance our concerns, including the NEB, the CER hearings, two rounds of consultation and two legal challenges. We have also produced our own independent analysis of TMX, grounded in our own unextinguished law and informed by world-class spill and economic analysis.
Tsleil-Waututh is a leader in economic development in the Lower Mainland of B.C., but our businesses must be undertaken in accordance with Tsleil-Waututh law and with our obligation to restore the health of our Burrard Inlet.
We've been tracking the underlying economics of TMX, because according to the Canadian legal test, the economic benefits of the pipeline are supposed to justify the burdens, including the infringement of TWN's indigenous rights, oil spill risks and climate-related risks. Our economic analyses have consistently shown that TMX will not be profitable. We have conducted numerous expert economic analyses that conclude that Trans Mountain is not economically viable and will not return the profit to its owners. Since 2015, report after report has indicated that the economic case and the need for TMX have crumbled.
We attended Kinder Morgan's AGM in Houston, Texas, on several occasions and met with Kinder Morgan's largest institutional investors on Wall Street. We knew that the company was not accurately communicating the risks and uncertainty facing the project. We studied the 2013 toll methodology. We understood that the economics could only support a profitable project of about $10 billion maximum. Contrary to popular understanding, this is the reason Kinder Morgan walked away from TMX. They hoodwinked Canada on the way by selling it for $4.5 billion.
Finance Minister Morneau said after the purchase that TMX would be operated on a commercial basis. That has not happened. A commercial operator would not have applied to the CER for a toll that recovers less than half the cost of the construction. Imagine what would happen to Enbridge's share price if they tried that.
If the CER approves the tolls Trans Mountain applied for, it means a $17 billion to $20 billion loss to its owners. The CER has been put in a position it was not designed to regulate. There may be other benefits for the Canadian economy, as you heard, but Trans Mountain will lose a significant amount if the tolls as applied for are approved by the CER. The only other option is that the oil companies pay more for the pipeline that serves only them. Like they said earlier, they have record production and profits, while Canadians are still struggling with the cost of living.
We predict that a debt writedown might be spun as economic reconciliation, but let's be clear that this is a massive subsidy to the oil and gas sector.
In short, it comes down to this question: Who do you think will pay for this pipeline? Should it mostly be the oil companies who are its only customers and primary beneficiaries and who are recording record profits, or should it mostly be taxpayers who are struggling with the cost of living? I'd like to know where each of you stands on this.
Lastly, TWN is concerned by the federal government's expressed intention to sell the pipeline, and specifically to first nations. This will in effect allow the federal government to rid its hands of this failed, catastrophic economic venture while being able to style it as a move towards reconciliation.
We understand that first nations across Canada have varied interests and needs and will make decisions that are best for their communities. We are, however, concerned that this pipeline will be pitched to first nations as a viable economic opportunity, without providing full information. They will be burdened with the liability of a spill.
Selling an oil pipeline with bad economics to first nation groups is a modern-day equivalent of gifting smallpox blankets. The long-term harm outweighs the original gift. It's a catastrophic mess.
On one day this time last year, we had 434 fires. We've seen the Chilcotin River, a main tributary to the Fraser River, be filled up with half of a mountain that fell into the river and backed it up for 12 kilometres—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
Mr. Rueben, I would just ask you to wrap up if you could. We're over time, and I just want to get you to conclude your opening statement.
Spokesperson, Sacred Trust Initiative, Tsleil-Waututh Nation
Okay. Thank you.
The political theatre here could be frustrating, and I've been watching this really closely.
I think it's time for me to have a snack. Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
Thank you for your opening statement.
We will now go to Mr. Meguinis for five minutes.
Sir, the floor is yours.
Travis Meguinis Commander-in-Chief, Red Nation Natural Law Energy
Thank you, Chairman. I'm honoured to be here amongst Canada's finest. I offer a heartfelt welcome to all of you.
My name is Travis Meguinis. I'm a surviving descendant member of Treaty 7 territory and Tsuut'ina Nation, but I also have Treaty 6 bloodlines from Saddle Lake Cree Nation and Maskwacis, Alberta. I'm a proud member of the Tsuut'ina Nation and a past Indian Act-elected leader, but I'm also a hereditary leader. I'm a man who carries our traditions with faith and belief like all of you do here when you're sworn into office. In our traditional way, it's important to be proud and to share where you come from and what you've earned.
As a hereditary sovereign organization, Natural Law Energy was created to compete and practice Canadian customs, which is in a corporate system. We were invited to participate in the KXL. It was through Treaties 4, 6, 7 and 8 that we participated, and we amalgamated all the leaders in those territories who were part of the Crown consultation here in Ottawa and were invited by industry. At that time, we, as Natural Law Energy, were invited by Canada again to participate in the engagement process over five years ago with Trans Mountain.
Natural law is a constitutional word for our people. Natural law is a real thing. We understand where we come from, which is why we have sun dances, and your science holds today that everybody came from the sun. The sun was the first mother to this galaxy we know that's part of the Milky Way.
With our natural laws, we understand creation. We understand the cosmos. We understand Mother Earth. We have that connection, which is why we get into energy. Energy is a big part of humanity today, and it's the thumbprint that we bring from our traditions that could bring balance. This is actually the first time, and we're blazing trails. I speak for the chiefs whom I've consulted with along the way, working on Trans Mountain from Edmonton to the southern peninsula of Vancouver Island.
From the Cree territory, the Dene, where I come from, Squamish Chief Dale Harry and Lower Nicola Indian Band Chief Stu Jackson are just a few of the allies we have in trying to bring a better way of living to our people. Our people, through the last 500 years, have been in survival mode living amongst the newcomers. We have our stories and our creation stories that we share, and our natural laws are our education that comes from the sun dance, the sweat lodge, horse dance and chicken dance, just to name a few. That's our education. That's our way of life, and we walk two roads with that life. We want to work with everybody at the table. We don't want to be in survival mode or playing defence for the next 500 years.
We understand energy. We've worked with energy. I know that we can bring a lot of good to the AER, and it's understood and it's fair. I can hear both the right and the left speak here today. I agree with both similarities. I do believe it's the indigenous, as you call us, who bring a good balance to the development of natural resources. It's through our studies and through our knowledge that we can implement new policies that we call laws. Our natural laws are God-Creator given and God-Creator protected.
It's with respect that I say this here today. We've been engaged for the last five years, and we've spent millions.
I'll leave you with two last thoughts.
We talk about millions and billions. Some of my team have mentioned that, if I were to sit here with all of you for one million seconds, it would be 11 days. However, if I sit here with all of you for one billion seconds, it would be 33 years. I say with respect that there is a big difference between millions and billions. We have our ways of trying to function and move forward respectfully with everybody.
They say that, when you guys first came, Columbus called people “Indians”. I'm just glad you guys didn't call us “turkeys”.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
Thank you, Mr. Meguinis, for your opening statement.
We'll now proceed to our first round of questions. I'll begin for six minutes with Mr. Patzer.
Go ahead.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you so much to both witnesses for coming here today. I appreciate it.
One of the most distinct honours I've had in my time as a member of Parliament was joining Chief Francis of Nekaneet First Nation for a sweat and smudge ceremony when Natural Law Energy was going through the Keystone XL process.
I'm wondering if you could talk a little more about what that project would have meant for your nation, and about some of the great work your nation is doing on energy and what it's meant for your community.
Commander-in-Chief, Red Nation Natural Law Energy
Some of the things that came forward during that time.... Yes, Chief Alvin Francis was at the table with all the other chiefs from Treaty No. 4, Treaty No. 6 and Treaty No. 7. We did something very historic there. We brought nations together to purchase the Keystone pipeline within Canadian boundaries. I believe that, had Biden not pulled it, we'd have more access to housing and essential needs.
Everybody's smart here. Most importantly, we bring the thumbprint of understanding our mother earth. Like anybody else, the treaty nations in Alberta have lived among oil and gas. My fourth great-grandfather, who was a chief who signed Treaty No. 7, also signed some oil deals with the northwest mineral company. That's how far back oil and gas goes in our nations. We're talking early 1900s or late 1800s. We know it in our territory. It is common knowledge. Therefore, we understand that we must bring a balance of essential needs and wisdom to the table, because we have that connection to creation.
Thank you.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Trying to get multiple treaties together to form under Natural Law is quite an accomplishment.
I'm wondering if you could talk about how many communities are involved in this, and what the proposed project here would mean for those communities.
Commander-in-Chief, Red Nation Natural Law Energy
I sit here today by myself. I'm honoured to answer the call and the invitation. However, behind me, there's a lot of wisdom from elders, technicians and engineers. A lot of what we work on is blazing trails for indigenous.... We don't want to be marginalized anymore when it comes to industry. A lot of the stuff that happens in our traditional territories has us sitting on the sidelines, looking in. To be here and speak with my feather hat, as hereditary chief.... I've crowned chiefs. I gave a feather hat to your Prime Minister Trudeau. I was also part of the crowning ceremony for AFN's national chief Cindy Woodhouse at the beginning of this year. I was part and parcel to all of that.
To speak for all treaty areas.... They have different needs, and there are different environments. However, the engagement process we have is always traditional. We go in there and ask the elders for their permission first. For anything to do with buying pipelines or being part of that, we go to the ceremonies and the elders, and we ask them whether it's right and okay.
Thank you.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
In your opening remarks, you talked about the future and what that might look like for your nation.
For the next generation, for the young people, I'm wondering about opportunities that do exist or maybe what opportunities could exist if Natural Law Energy is successful in its bid to buy this pipeline. I'm wondering if you could speak to the importance of that and also to what it would mean for the elders.
Commander-in-Chief, Red Nation Natural Law Energy
Just to be clear here at the table, one of the things is that it's Natural Law X. The X symbolizes our forefathers when they signed treaties. They didn't know how to speak or write English, so they marked the treaty with an X. That refers to Natural Law TMX.
Just like you practice safer ways to do corporate governance in Canada, we do as well. We take the good as much as anybody else, and we try our best. We incorporated another company called Natural Law X, which holds that distinction from Natural Law Energy, which was after the KXL. Natural Law X is Natural Law TMX. It's a whole different set of members, ones from Edmonton all the way to the southern peninsula of Vancouver Island. We have about 40 nations that we're talking to.
The only way you get things done is through a band council resolution. You shouldn't be running around saying that you have nations on your side when you have a chief's signature; that's one person. You have to have a band council resolution to come to the table, and you practice it through GP and LP with your practices in corporate Canada.
