Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

You can finish off with that, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Is there a connection, Ms. Yedlin?

[Deborah Yedlin]

This is a multifactorial issue. There's not an A-then-B connection.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Is there is no connection between fossil fuel burning, or is it that you don't know?

[Deborah Yedlin]

There are many—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Strickland, do you know if there's a connection, or is this too complex for you too?

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I have a point of order.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Is it yes or no?

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Angus, I'm going to ask you to hold. We have a point of order from Mrs. Goodridge.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I appreciate that Mr. Angus might not want to hear the response, but I believe interrupting the witnesses after he gave very long questions is disrespectful, especially in speaking over powerful women who are simply trying to get their answer in.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's fair enough, and I have a point of order, Chair.

I agree. I'm more than willing to give them as much time as they want to talk. I won't say another word.

Can you tell me if you believe the science of climate change—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Angus—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'll stop talking and let them talk.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

I'll need you to stop because there is a point of order by Mrs. Goodridge and yourself.

To everybody around the table here, if you ask a question, allow the witnesses to have the opportunity to provide an answer, even if it's a brief answer, and let's try to not interrupt or talk over each other, just to keep the committee running smoothly, as it has been over several meetings. I thank you for your co-operation.

Mrs. Goodridge, thank you for highlighting that. Thank you, as well, Mr. Angus.

On a point of order, go ahead.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I certainly don't want to seem like a hard guy. I love Calgary. I spend a lot of time there. I love Edmonton; my wife's from there.

I didn't want to be rude, but I only get two and a half minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Your time's actually up.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know. This is my point of order.

Would they be willing to write, like other witnesses, to tell us if they believe in climate science—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I hate to say this, but oil and gas development isn't actually in Calgary itself. They could have just let Ms. Yedlin and Adam answer—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

They could write to the committee and we can see. That way I haven't interrupted them.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Angus, I'm sorry. It's not a point of order, but on your point of clarification is taken.

To the witnesses, if you choose to write and would like to provide an additional brief on anything you've provided today or anything you may have missed, or if you'd like to add any extra context or information, you are able to do so by sending it directly to the clerk.

We are out of time on that round of questioning and I want to go to our next speaker.

Mr. Falk, you have five minutes, so ask away.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You're generous today. Thank you.

Thank you to all our witnesses.

I took a quick look at your biographies a few minutes ago and I didn't see “scientist” on any one of them. If you're being asked scientific questions and you don't have an answer, that's totally understandable.

I did know, Ms. Yedlin, that you have a degree in economics and you have an MBA, so I want to ask you some questions about money.

How did we get to $34 billion? That was really the intent of the study: How did we get to $34 billion from what should have been $12 billion at the outset? If you go right back to the outset, it was $9.7 billion.

I know we've heard all kinds of things, but in your opinion.... Have you had the time to study it? Could you give us what you believe cost the extra money?

[Deborah Yedlin]

There were delays, for one thing, as well as the fact that the approvals were withdrawn and the scope was changed. There were a lot of technical issues that had to be addressed. There was a pandemic. There were some other unforeseen environmental issues. As economists would say, there were a lot of exogenous variables that contributed to the rising costs, like supply chain issues, work stoppages and the challenges of dealing with the protests. There was also meaningful consultation that took place with 130 indigenous communities.

All of this took time, and time is money. Unfortunately, this is the number that we've come to for the project, but I do believe that the valuation is going to be such that we will capture the value of the project over time and that it will have been worth the dollars that were spent to buy the pipeline.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you.

At our last meeting, we had Mr. Maki, the CEO of Trans Mountain, with us. He indicated he was very committed to being a disciplined seller and that the Canadian taxpayer would get a 100% return on their investment.

Can you tell me what the toll would have to be to get a 100% return on $34 billion? I know there are lots of variables. I totally understand that. We saw a half per cent interest rate drop today from the Bank of Canada, which will have a huge impact. Do you have a ballpark number or a range?

[Deborah Yedlin]

I'm not an expert on tolls. I had a finance professor who was a witness at the Ontario Energy Board on tolls, but I am not an expert on tolls. I don't know what that number should be, but I do know that when you think about what companies were having to do in order to ship their barrels south of the border at between $15 and $22 U.S. a barrel by rail, which also takes longer, that is something the industry had to deal with.

We're going to be looking at the tolls that will be decided by the CER. Obviously, there'll be a lot of push-back on both sides. I think it's a function of the revenues it's going to generate. It's also a function of the value that it's going to add. The right buyer is going to see a return on that investment, because it's going to generate cash.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Legge, you have previously written articles in the Calgary Sun and other periodicals about your opinion of the production cap or emissions cap. Can you expand on that for this committee, please?