Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 27th, 2024

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand that people are sometimes misquoted in the media. However, some English‑language articles suggested that you and Ms. Freeland agreed to support the Pathways Alliance through the Canada Growth Fund. I'm saying this because you referred to the generous tax credit, which I believe is worth $12 billion. If money were also taken from the Canada Growth Fund, I would find that outrageous. Taxpayers shouldn't be responsible for paying oil companies.

I'm thinking about what Suncor's Rich Kruger had to say here. He suggested that oil companies were spending too much time reducing their carbon footprint. After that, do we really expect to use taxpayer money to reward these billion‑dollar companies? I find that outrageous.

It would be unwise for your government to decide to use, for this purpose, the Canada Growth Fund, which falls outside the government reporting entity. This means that you wouldn't need to follow the usual rules for awarding grants.

I don't want to put words in your mouth. However, when Ms. Freeland came here, she seemed open to the idea of funding the Pathways Alliance through the Canada Growth Fund. In some of the English‑language articles that I read, you seemed open to this mechanism as well. If you tell me clearly that this isn't the case, I'll take your word for it. I'm not a Conservative, so I won't argue with you.

Are you prepared to clearly rule out the idea of funding the Pathways Alliance through the Canada Growth Fund?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As I said earlier, the Canada Growth Fund is independent and it makes decisions independently.

Its mandate is to speed up the development of a clean economy, but also to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions. If it makes a move to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that come from the oil sector, I'm all for it. However, I'm also on board when it invests in critical minerals, hydrogen or other areas that hold great promise for the future.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I know that you aren't the Minister of Finance. However, $15 billion was taken out of the public purse and put into the Canada Growth Fund. You're telling me that these people are completely independent, that they make their own decisions and that they don't seek advice from the government. How strange.

I suggest that you conduct a thorough press review. Articles in English Canada indicate that you and Ms. Freeland want to use the Canada Growth Fund to support the Pathways Alliance. I want to believe you. The fact remains that this would be a way to meet your emissions cap targets. If you tell me today that this isn't the case and that you aren't speaking with the people at the Canada Growth Fund about supporting the Pathways Alliance, again, I'll take your word for it. I'm not a Conservative, so I'll believe you. However, I would find it unwise to announce, in the coming months, that the Canada Growth Fund will support the Pathways Alliance in order to meet the emissions cap targets.

Could this happen? If you say no, I'll believe you.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As I said, the Canada Growth Fund makes its decisions independently. Ms. Freeland and I don't have any influence on its decisions.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand. So—

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

That said, I support the Pathways Alliance project. I want to see it happen, hence the tax credit.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus for six minutes.

Mr. Angus, you have the floor.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

This past week, Paper Excellence admitted to European anti-monopoly regulators that, in fact, they are Asia Pulp & Paper.

There was a huge public track record identifying the connection among Paper Excellence, Asia Pulp & Paper and Sinar Mas, from Shanghai. However, your officials, your government, came and told us that you couldn't find any connection whatsoever.

Did they just play you guys for suckers?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I'm curious, Mr. Chair, about what this has to do with the supplementary (B)s in Natural Resources Canada.

The purview, as you will know, Mr. Angus, for the review of foreign investments actually lies with the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I absolutely understand that.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I understand that you are interested in having him come and answer your questions, so I encourage you to do that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Did you provide any warnings or advice to the Minister of Innovation, being that Natural Resources Canada is your responsibility?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

When an Investment Canada Act review is actually ongoing, it has nothing to do with Natural Resources Canada.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

It doesn't. Okay.

Corporate reputation is everything, especially in forestry. Asia Pulp & Paper had a notorious track record. It launched one of the most intensive burnings of forests and peatlands in Indonesian history, which released 1.75 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide in just a few months. When it took over Northern Pulp in Pictou, its emissions surpassed the threshold by 100,000%.

Did your department track this company at all?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As I say—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

We have a point of order.

I will ask you to hold on, Minister Wilkinson.

Go ahead, Ms. Dabrusin.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I know that it's kind of loose on this piece, but perhaps if Mr. Angus could help us tie that to the supplementary (B)s, that would be helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you for your point of order.

Mr. Angus, on the questioning, we give quite a bit of latitude, but could you tie it to the conversation at hand on the supplementary estimates?

Minister Wilkinson was about to answer, and then you can continue on.

Go ahead, Mr. Wilkinson.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you.

As I say, certainly some of the information that you stated, and that is in the public media in terms of the behaviour of this particular company, is concerning.

The government, through the Investment Canada Act review, obtained a number of different commitments on the part of the company before any decision was made on the basis of a net benefit to Canada. Of course, the government will monitor, and is monitoring, those kinds of conditions that were actually imposed on the company.

However, in terms of a detailed response with respect to a lot of these issues, I encourage you to invite the Minister of Innovation to come and answer your questions.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We will be. The issue is whether there was any responsibility for Natural Resources Canada to look after our forests when we gave it to such corporate bandits.

A former manager at APP's Shanghai offices spoke to Canadian media. They said that the whole intention of Asia Pulp & Paper taking control of Domtar and Resolute Forest Products was that it was “a fibre grab”.

They want to keep the perception that Paper Excellence is an asset of Canada, for Canada and by Canada. In reality, it's a feeder for the Chinese machine.

Are you looking into whether our mills and our forests are being used by Asia Pulp & Paper as a feeder for the Chinese machine?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As part of any Investment Canada Act review, there is an ongoing monitoring of the behaviour and the commitments the company has. I encourage you to have that conversation with the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Did Natural Resources—

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I would raise this question again, though, to the Chair. What does this have to do with supplementary (B)s?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

What does it have to do with your department's responsibility to look after our forests? That's my question.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I think I was actually invited to be here to talk about supplementary (B)s. Normally, you would talk about what you were invited to come here for, Mr. Angus. I'm not sure how this relates to that at all.