Natural Resources Committee on April 6th, 2022

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

In fact, people have to be very careful that they say all of a sudden that natural gas naturally displaces coal. You actually have to tie it to what's being displaced. If you're shipping it to Asia, it's not necessarily displacing coal. You have to follow it to ensure that it's actually doing that.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I'm well aware of that. I wasn't specifically looking at any country. I said just with the ones using coal, if you could get them natural gas, it would displace it.

This is a simple yes or no. Have you ever publicly stated that you want to get western Canadian energy to New Brunswick, Canada, so we can stop importing Saudi oil to be refined?

That's just a yes or a no.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

We are always looking at ensuring that Canada is utilizing Canadian energy, and energy that comes from reasonable sources of oil. But certainly—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

But it must be Canadian energy—

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

—we are working on that each and every day.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I didn't get a yes or a no. Have you ever stated that you'd like to see western Canadian oil go to Atlantic Canada?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As I say, particularly in Atlantic Canada, the increasing focus, as we think about the energy transition, is to look to try to reduce the demand for oil in particular—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

It's pretty simple. That's why—

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

—and more towards renewables. That's exactly why there was an announcement yesterday with respect to the Newfoundland offshore board, where it is actually taking on the responsibility to do offshore wind, hydrogen and a range of other things.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

The minister of natural resources is to support Canadian natural resources. I want the minister to champion Canadian energy.

Do you want Canadians to stop importing foreign oil—yes or no?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I champion Canadian energy, of all forms, each and every day, but I do so as a human being who has children and who is worried about the climate crisis.

We need to ensure that we are working in a manner that is consistent with addressing climate change, and doing so in a manner that improves the economic performance of our energy sector broadly. That is hydro. That is oil. That is gas. That is renewables. That is biofuels. That is hydrogen.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Specifically talking about the oil that is coming into the east coast of our country from places that don't have the regulations we are working under here in this country, do you want to stop importing foreign oil—yes or no?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I'm certainly glad to hear that you're interested in and in support of regulations to reduce the carbon intensity of the fuels that we use. That's exactly the route that we need to go as we move to reduce the consumption, domestically and internationally, of oil.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

We still don't have an answer. It's pretty obvious it would be beneficial to stop importing this foreign oil and to use Canadian energy. One of the big reasons here is the indigenous part of the whole energy area. Multiple indigenous leaders have appeared here and stated that the government must get consent from them before they impose an emissions cap on the energy sector. Will you commit today to not imposing an emissions cap on indigenous communities that have not given you consent to do so?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I would say that this government is very, very much—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

It's pretty simple.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

—aware of the requirements to have a duty to consult, and we work each and every day to honour those obligations. Of course, through the process of developing the emissions cap—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

But will you—

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

—we are going to be consulting with indigenous communities who want to be part of that conversation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That takes us to just over five minutes.

In the interest of time, we're going to go to Mr. Maloney.

The clock is starting for you.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I'll try to be quick, because I have only five minutes.

I thank you both for being here.

Minister Wilkinson, you're always generous with your time, but in my six and a half years on this committee, I don't recall a time when two ministers have appeared at the same time, so this is a very special occasion.

First, could both of you please tell the committee how an emissions cap will create regulatory certainty in a way that would not only incentivize innovation but also support emissions reductions?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I can start.

Thank you for the question and for all of the work you've done over the years with respect to this committee and this area of interest.

The objective of the cap is to provide ambitious and achievable emission reduction targets in a way that will provide certainty and predictability. The intent of the cap is not to drive reductions in production that are not driven by significant declines in global demand. Setting the cap will provide clear expectations over the long term for industry as to what needs to be done to reach net zero by 2050—something the industry itself has committed to. A well-designed cap will send a long-term-price signal to industry regarding the need to innovate to reduce emissions, through investments in technology in Canada that will be able to greatly contribute to our emissions reduction efforts. We've already seen this happen with other regulations. Our efforts to reduce methane emissions saw the development of various innovative clean technologies—I referred to this earlier—to achieve this goal, and those can be shared and exported around the world as clean technology. In addition to a number of these kinds of incentives, our government has partnered and will continue to directly partner with Canadian innovators to drive investment and lower emissions.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for the question.

If I may add a few elements, as I was saying earlier, we have started informal consultations with indigenous leadership, environmental organizations, experts in the field and oil companies, including in Edmonton and Calgary, on the oil and gas cap on emissions. What struck me when I first met the representatives of the oil companies was that none of them said they wanted nothing to do with this cap. They all said, let's sit down together and work on this to figure this out. I think that's the approach we're taking. We want to work with everyone to ensure we design this in a way that makes sense from an environmental perspective and from an economical and energy perspective.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, ministers.

My second question is for you, Minister Guilbeault. Can you speak to the options you're considering in the design of the cap?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Yes, a number of options are being considered by my department at this time, but the decisions and details will be developed through collaborative discussions with industry, provinces, indigenous leadership and experts over the coming months. What I can say is that we remain very open to the approach and have heard from witnesses to the committee and other stakeholders that some would prefer to use existing tools to achieve the cap, while others are interested in a new legislated cap under CEPA. We're currently evaluating all the options at this point, including creative alternatives to the two options I've just outlined.