Natural Resources Committee on April 6th, 2022

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Wilkinson and Mr. Guilbeault, thank you for joining us today.

The committee is meeting today to talk about capping greenhouse gas emissions, or GHG emissions. Of course, capping emissions doesn't mean increasing them.

Mr. Guilbeault, first of all, I want to know why you approved the Bay du Nord development project.

Do you think that it will help to reduce GHG emissions?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I want to clarify that there hasn't been any formal announcement on the Bay du Nord project. If you look at the emissions reduction plan tabled last week, you'll see that it draws on a number of sources of information, including the Canada Energy Regulator. This regulator operates independently of the government and projects an increase in oil production in Canada by 2030.

We've incorporated these things into the reduction plan. Despite this increase in production, we've been saying all along that we'll tackle emissions. Minister Wilkinson spoke, for example, about reducing methane emissions, capping greenhouse gas emissions and using carbon pricing.

Despite the increase in production, we showed very convincingly, in the opinion of countless stakeholders across the country, how we could meet the 2030 goals.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

You have often said that Équiterre is one of these stakeholders.

I'll quickly read you a quote: “If the federal government is serious about its commitment to fight climate change, it must reject this project.”

This evening, will the ecologists still consider you a serious player?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Don't ask me, ask them.

That said, I want to point out that they praised the plan as the most robust, transparent and convincing plan in terms of Canada's ability to achieve these goals.

The plan doesn't depend on Canada deciding to help Europe and increase production by 300,000 barrels. We've already factored this into the analysis for the plan.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Guilbeault, you're spouting Conservative rhetoric.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

No, that isn't true at all.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

In my opinion, the use of the crisis in Russia to justify the intentions of oil companies constitutes Conservative rhetoric.

We know that Bay du Nord accounts for about one billion barrels of oil.

Do you know what one billion barrels of oil produces in megatonnes of greenhouse gases?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I don't know that by heart.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Well, I'll tell you. It amounts to 430 megatonnes, which is equivalent to 60% of the government's total emissions in 2019. That can't be hidden away. We can talk about carbon capture and sequestration strategies, but I wonder where the 430 megatonnes will go.

Do you have any idea?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

You're including all greenhouse gas emissions, and not just the emissions from oil extraction in this project, which amount to 0.04% of Canada's emissions.

As you know, the calculation method used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, doesn't work that way for greenhouse gas emissions. Emissions are calculated—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Let's talk about this. You're telling me that—

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Let me respond.

Regardless of whether we agree with the IPCC, according to its methodology, emissions are calculated where they take place. They can be calculated in the transportation sector, in the industrial sector, and so on.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

That's fine.

We're on the same page.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Okay.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Either we agree or we disagree with the IPCC.

When the IPCC says that increased fossil production stands in the way of capping and reducing emissions, do you still agree with the IPCC?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I think we need to take the time to read the IPCC report carefully. According to this report, we can no longer have oil production that is not offset or sequestered. In English, we use the term “unabated”. To my knowledge, there is no real French translation for this expression.

According to the IPCC, in order to meet the 1.5‑degree limit, countries need to reduce their emissions by 43% by 2030. Our goal is to reduce our emissions by 40% to 45%.

The IPCC says that in 2050, there will still be 35 million barrels of oil per day being used in the world, but it will have to be very low emission oil. All emissions will have to be offset. That is exactly what we are doing.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand.

I'll close by saying that tabling an emissions reduction plan and then a few days later approving an initiative like the Bay du Nord development, in my opinion, is very contradictory.

I will let my colleague Ms. Pauzé continue the discussion.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Guilbeault.

We're going to talk about the recent statement by Mr. Guterres, Secretary General of the United Nations, or UN. I will quote him. He said, “Investing in new fossil fuel production and power plants is moral and economic madness.”

Did he really say that? Do we agree on that?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I don't have the press release in front of me, but I think this is a pretty accurate representation of his words.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I have another excerpt from his statement.

He said, “Climate activists are sometimes depicted as dangerous radicals, but the truly dangerous radicals are the countries that are increasing the production of fossil fuels.”

Have we read the same thing?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I think that sounds like what he said.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Do you agree with the UN Secretary General when he says that the really dangerous radicals are the countries that are increasing fossil fuel production?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

In fact, I have often been called a radical person, both as an environmentalist and as a politician. Frankly, I'm not sure. I may be an expert on the issue of radicalism, but maybe I'm not. I don't know.

What I can say, and you probably read it as I did in the IPCC report, is that the IPCC is not saying that there will be no more oil in 2050. You know that.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

We agree on that, but he says...

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

He says there will be 36 million barrels of oil a day, but that oil will have to be offset or sequestered.