Natural Resources Committee on April 25th, 2022

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Questions are being raised about the small modular reactors and enriched uranium. This isn't CANDU waste. This is a different kind of waste.

I come from northern Ontario. We live with rock. Rock moves. Water moves. I don't know, maybe Yvonne Jones wants it....

You send your people to our area all the time, looking for a place to dump it, because it's a serious issue. The CANDU reactors have a technology, but this is different. You haven't addressed the fact that we're talking about enriched uranium, and there are serious questions about it.

Am I supposed to go home and tell people in northern Ontario, “Hey, you know? It's all been overblown. You can fit it into a hockey arena. You can eat it”? That's not a plan.

[Dr. Christopher Keefer]

Charlie, you're right that Canada has homegrown nuclear technology. We use non-enriched uranium. The rest of the world uses slightly enriched uranium in their reactor fleets and are managing their waste. The Onkalo site, the Finnish site for their DGR, is going to be holding waste from those kinds of reactors. Canada is unique in using non-enriched uranium. This is not a major issue, and again, waste is being managed worldwide.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, but the modular reactors are different from CANDU and the explanation Mr. Ramana, the physicist, gave at the environment committee was that because it's enriched uranium it's a different waste and it's a more problematic waste. We're still trying to figure out where to put the CANDU—

[Dr. Christopher Keefer]

It's the waste that's produced in reactors basically everywhere in the world outside Canada, and it's what's going to be put into the Finnish repository.

I think you really need to consult with some more physicists and nuclear engineers on this to understand this issue in more depth.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know, I'm just Charlie from northern Ontario.

[Dr. Christopher Keefer]

In regards to the IPCC—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Ramana is a physicist and he raised this.

The idea that, boy oh boy, you can eat the uranium once it's—

[Dr. Christopher Keefer]

I never said that, Charlie.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You did. You said if it sits long enough, after a thousand years—

[Dr. Christopher Keefer]

I said after a thousand years the only way it could hurt you is if you pulverized it and ate it. I'm not suggesting anyone eat nuclear waste, Charlie.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Well, I've been in northern Ontario and we've dealt with nuclear issues time and time again. If you're 7,000 feet underground, water moves.

[Dr. Christopher Keefer]

Charlie, honestly, speak to some of the geologists.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I've been there. I've seen it.

I've never met a geologist who said that we should store this in northern Ontario, especially the SMRs. You're giving us a great spin, but there are serious issues here.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Angus, Mr. Richards was, if you're interested, trying to get into the conversation as well. I don't know if you saw that.

[Chad Richards]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Through you, to the honourable member, with respect to the question about SMR technology, the fact that it's a new technology doesn't mean that it's not going through the CNSC, our world-class regulator, to look at safety aspects. I trust the great folks at the CNSC who for years have been regulating an industry that has been operating safely and effectively. I would trust them again with this process as well, as they evaluate the utility of this technology and the safety systems around it.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So, it hasn't been approved yet; it's being tested.

[Chad Richards]

It's moving through the CNSC process.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's the end of that six-minute round.

We're now going to go to a slightly shorter one—a couple of five minutes and then a couple of two and a half minutes and that's going to be the end of the time we have.

Mr. McLean, you have the first five minutes.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome and thank you to the nuclear representatives here for presenting viable technology that isn't just technology. It exists today; it's not fairytale stuff. It is an energy system, not just something where you add on to somebody else's energy system and pretend it works part time.

I really appreciate your comments on wind and solar. I'd like you to expand a bit on the actual capacity of wind and solar versus the energy delivery of wind and solar. Specifically, on a cold day in Alberta, how much power is produced by alternative energy—wind and solar—versus their capacity? Any clue of the numbers?

[Dr. Christopher Keefer]

It sounds like you've looked at them recently.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I have. I know these numbers.

[Dr. Christopher Keefer]

Across Canada solar averages around 15% capacity factor, meaning it produces 15% of the installed amount that you've made. Wind is usually around 30% to 35%. CANDUs are running over 90%.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I think that's capacity numbers. On a cold day in Canada wind and solar combine to make less than 1% of our electricity production.

Let's accept that if wind and solar are our only options here, then Canadians will freeze in the dark. We need an energy solution like nuclear that actually does provide some baseload power, not just some intermittency.

Are you familiar with the cost of tying intermittent power into a sustainable power grid itself?

[Dr. Christopher Keefer]

One can look at the example of Germany, which has the most expensive electricity in the EU, and California as well. While building a solar farm is cheap, the cost of the electricity produced.... When you flick the switch, you're not just getting solar energy. When the sun goes down you're usually getting natural gas-fired energy. Those plants are not being run as efficiently because it's like stop-and-go traffic instead of highway driving for the power plants backing things up.