Natural Resources Committee on April 25th, 2022

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

You essentially need a lot of inverters, a lot of build-out of the power, all of which are paid for by ratepayers, which in Canada are taxpayers at the same time. Especially in Ontario and Quebec, many of the electricity customers business-wise are subsidized.

What are the dollars per kilowatt hour of production of power by nuclear? Life cycle, capital cost, everything....

[Chad Richards]

I can't speak to the life cycle, but I have in front of me numbers from the 2021 Ontario Energy Board total unit supply cost, and it's in cents per kilowatt hour. The average residential price for power was 13.5 cents per kilowatt hour. When we look at combined nuclear in Ontario, it was 8.9 cents per kilowatt hour that the grid was paying for that power. When we look at solar, it was 49.7 cents per kilowatt hour. For wind, it was 14.8 cents per kilowatt hour.

Nuclear, despite some of the rhetoric out there, is actually one of the cheaper forms when it comes to ratepayer benefit.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you for that.

This is versus Muskrat Falls—and I have some colleagues here from Newfoundland—which is at 26.5 cents per kilowatt hour for the electricity being provided by the newest hydro option in Canada. I appreciate the numbers.

I'm going to move to my old favourite, Mr. Breton. Mr. Breton, thank you for coming again. You've appeared before me in committee a couple of times already, and you keep promising me you're going to give me better data when the meeting is over. This is a committee of Parliament, and I have yet to see you provide me with the data that I'm missing, which you seem to be more seized with than I am. My numbers and your numbers differ substantially.

I have the transcripts of the last two times you've appeared before me in these committees. Let me go through some of those, where you talked about wind and solar being the options to move to a grid here that is sustainable and does away with hydrocarbons, as far as our internal combustion engine fleet is concerned.

Would you like me to refer to our meeting at the natural resources committee in the last Parliament?

[Daniel Breton]

Are you asking me?

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Yes, I am.

[Daniel Breton]

Yes, sure, but I'm not here to talk about wind and solar; I'm here to talk about Electric Mobility.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

That's right. You talked about $200 billion being funded by the federal government in order to move towards a zero-emission vehicle fleet. Now, you're funded by the zero-emission vehicle industry to some degree. Is that correct?

[Daniel Breton]

Well, yes. Like—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Yet, the last time I had you in front of the finance committee, you were asking for $2 million to subsidize your office and your appearances here before Parliament in committees. Is that correct?

[Daniel Breton]

Yes.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay. You asked for $2 million. I asked at the last natural resources committee you appeared at what your budget was, and you said $2 million. This is a hash. You want the federal government—

[Daniel Breton]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

—to give you $2 million so you can fund yourself to appear before committees. Is this not what the government calls a circular economy?

[Daniel Breton]

No, because we didn't get a penny. I guess we're self-funded.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Would you say you're self-funded by Crown corporations?

[Daniel Breton]

No, because the vast majority of our members are private companies. If you—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Like Hydro-Québec and Ontario hydro, these are—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm going to jump in here. We're unfortunately out of time. This goes quickly.

We have limited time to finish off, so I'm now going to go to Ms. Lapointe and reset the clock.

You have five minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Breton, I have a question for you about Canada's transition to electric vehicles.

In your testimony last spring before the Standing Committee on International Trade, you stated that Canada's human and natural resources put us in an ideal position to become a world leader in electric mobility.

From a global perspective, can we be self-sufficient and meet all the transportation supply chain's needs with electric vehicles?

Would it make sense to focus on expertise in only certain areas of the supply chain?

Can one country do it all?

[Daniel Breton]

No country can be completely self-sufficient in manufacturing electric vehicles. Therefore, countries need to work together, and that's currently happening with the United States, Europe and other countries working to build a supply chain for electric vehicles. No, no country can really do it all, and Canada isn't a desert island cut off from the rest of the world.

That said, opportunities are emerging, and we saw it recently when the federal government made announcements about light- and heavy-duty vehicles. We're talking about buses, trucks, cars and light trucks. We're also talking about charging infrastructure, batteries and anode and cathode plants.

A number of very exciting announcements have been made. In my opinion, Canada was at risk of becoming a small player in the automotive sector. However, after the recent announcements, we can see that the current Canadian government has the political will to make Canada a major player. I'd like to commend Minister Champagne's initiative in this regard. He's worked very hard to attract international players to Canada, Quebec and Ontario.

Last week at the Montreal Electric Vehicle Show, I spoke with Minister Champagne, who told me that further announcements were in the works. Believe it or not, when I was young I worked at a refinery in Montreal East. At the time, there were eight refineries in Montreal East, and today only one remains.

We're witnessing an energy transition that didn't start two or three years ago, but long before that. If we want it to be a just transition, we need to make sure we can train people. Right now, one challenge we face is that we need to train people well so that they can get these high-quality jobs, whether it's in the mining sector, the research sector, the assembly sector or the sales, marketing, maintenance or mechanical sectors.

All of these sectors represent jobs, not just in Quebec or Ontario, but across the country.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

In the mining and critical minerals sector, we're finding that more workers are needed in many areas along the supply chain.

In your opinion, where does Canada currently stand in terms of skilled workers in the natural resources areas needed to build electric transportation systems, but also in terms of the expertise or intellectual capital needed?

[Daniel Breton]

At this point, we still have a lot of work to do because we're playing catch-up. Some countries, like China, started developing this sector two decades ago.

The United States, Canada and even Europe have sort of taken it for granted. Even though I've been talking about the electrification of transportation for about 20 years, it's only been a few years since Western governments woke up and saw how important the transition to battery- and hydrogen-powered electric vehicles is. All of a sudden, many manufacturers are saying that the transition is coming and their backs are kind of up against the wall.

Last weekend, I was at the Montreal Electric Vehicle Show, and people came out in record numbers because they want electric vehicles. However, it was hard to find qualified workers who could properly inform consumers wanting to buy electric vehicles, and I'm just talking about the sales aspect. The whole value chain and training chain need to be put in place. Some of the responsibility lies with manufacturers, but the government can play a role.

I'm currently in discussions about this with Natural Resources Canada to develop training programs. It's extremely urgent.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

You said the government had reduced the necessary risks.

Do you have any other advice for the government?

[Daniel Breton]

When putting forward a plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions like the one announced a few weeks ago, they have to make sure that the money is going to be invested in the right place. The government announced a $900 million investment, of which $400 million will go to Natural Resources Canada and $500 million will go to the Canada Infrastructure Bank to install charging or supply infrastructure for battery- or hydrogen-powered electric vehicles. They need to ensure that the funds are invested in the right place, in the right environments.

At the moment, we face challenges with respect to charging and refuelling in downtown areas. We're finding that the highway systems are being well supplied, better and better supplied. Of course, some regions, like British Columbia and Quebec, are ahead of other provinces. That's why we talk regularly with elected officials and federal public servants to make sure the funds are going to be invested in the right place and in the most efficient way. We don't want to waste money.

However, I want to go back to what I said earlier. One thing is for sure: if we want to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions, our air pollution, and find a way to make a just energy transition, we have to do it efficiently. Thinking that we can always produce more energy and make bigger vehicles is a bit counterintuitive to the need for efficiency.

That's something I really want to see emphasized.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry, Mr. Breton; I'll just ask you to wrap it up. We're over time here.