Natural Resources Committee on May 2nd, 2022

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Yes, go ahead.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

At this point, it's gone on for a while, but I'm going to tend to agree that this has very little to do with anything and nothing to do with just transition. At this point, we have a study. We have terms of reference for a study. This is absolutely not part of that study, so I would suggest that it's not relevant.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I would say that I've generally given fairly large latitude in the questions. There are a minute and 17 seconds left. Mr. McLean, I will give you the latitude that I've afforded to panels, but, as Ms. Dabrusin points out, we have a study that we're looking at, and it's always helpful to get testimony related to that study.

I'll turn it back to you.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Chair, I hope this isn't my time, but in answer to Ms. Dabrusin's point of order, the witness did talk about corporate accountability, and I was asking her about that. I fail to see how it wasn't part of the testimony we're given here. If you can rule that as out of order, I'd really appreciate it. I'll continue on with my—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'll restart the clock at a minute and 17 seconds.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you.

We know the energy transition is under way, yet other government bodies, including the Canadian Energy Regulator, talk about our producing a million more barrels of oil equivalent in 2030. Somehow this transition that you're talking about isn't completely under way at this point in time, is it?

[Dr. Nichole Dusyk]

The CER's scenarios are in fact just scenarios. They will fully admit that those are not aligned with the government's climate goals. If you read that scenario, it says that oil peaks in 2032. That is the year that it peaks, and that is not consistent with the government's climate goals.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Indeed, and that's why we're trying to square the hole here, if you will. Which way we are going forward on this is something that we need to address. Do Canadians become energy starved or do we produce energy that is more and more environmental as we go forward?

I'll disagree with the other witness here that ending oil and gas in the world is something that's on the horizon, because in fact, as we found out at the International Energy Agency, the 34 most developed countries in the world are only down to 77.9% of fossil fuel energy on a larger base at this point in time, and that's after already trillions of dollars in grants from governments in order to move towards alternative energies.

I would like us to move more quickly, but I'm not finding the facts that you're putting on the table here leading to that conclusion.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time on this one now.

Folks, we have 18 minutes until the bells. We have time for one more six-minute question before we suspend for the vote, if that works for people.

Mr. Chahal, you have six minutes on the clock. It's over to you.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for presenting today.

I'm going to take the questioning back to why we're here, namely the just transition study and work we're doing here at committee.

Ms. Dusyk, in your presentation you raised a number of important elements and stated that you could provide some further comments with regard to legislation. Could you provide those further comments on the important elements of just transition legislation from your perspective?

[Dr. Nichole Dusyk]

Yes. Thank you.

Coming from the report I mentioned, “Making Good Green Jobs the Law”, we have a number of recommendations specific to legislation. One of the recommendations I made is that just transition legislation should be part of a larger strategy. We do need to think about a larger strategy, and that strategy, in a roundabout way, should be articulated through the legislation, in part because what we have right now is a commitment by this government to produce just transition legislation. That is likely to be one of the first pieces to come forward. We need to think about that and the commitment to develop that larger strategy with complementary measures as part of of the legislation.

Legislation should also reference key international agreements and principles, particularly the principles of a just transition as articulated by the International Labour Organization. It should also reference the 1.5° scenario, because that is the scenario that avoids climate catastrophe.

An act should take a tripartite-plus approach, as I mentioned in my initial statements, with strong, ongoing social dialogue and a focus on equity. It should name the partners that would be part of that tripartite-plus approach. They should all be named in the legislation.

It should also establish an advisory body and have a clearly defined role for that advisory body. The bones of that advisory body need to be set out in the legislation. Preferably that advisory body would have some negotiating power as well.

The act should also include comprehensive plans for implementation and accountability. It's really important that with any programs or supports that are put into place, any legal framework, there need to be clear evaluation metrics. The framework needs to have clear authority for who is responsible for delivering the programs and for delivering results in those programs.

Those are the five combined recommendations.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Pai, your presentation spoke about an inter-ministerial committee. I believe that's a committee between the various levels of government. Could you confirm if that's what you're intending with those remarks—that it's between all levels of government?

[Dr. Sandeep Pai]

Yes, that meant between different ministries, such as the ministries of environment and finance and the ministries looking after skills development and various others.

That's a model that has, in part, worked in other jurisdictions. The U.S. has an active inter-agency working group on energy communities that's actually doing quite well in terms of providing funding. South Africa also has a presidential council on the just transition, which includes members from various ministries, including from provinces or states that are impacted.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Do you see that going also to provincial and municipal governments, and local governments and indigenous communities as well?

[Dr. Sandeep Pai]

Yes. Ideally, in that task force or committee, there should be representation from the most impacted communities, including labour, indigenous communities and others.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Kirkland, what can we learn from other countries that have gone through a just transition—Germany, Spain, New Zealand and other countries—that we can incorporate here to get our just transition legislation and policies right?

[Hadrian Mertins-Kirkwood]

One of the most important things is that if you have sufficient social policy and a sufficient social safety net on the one hand, and on the other hand a green industrial policy to build out an alternative, you don't need a just transition. That takes care of itself. That was Denmark's experience. They didn't need to talk about a just transition, but just scaled up the wind industry and protected everyone who was displaced.

More recently, countries like New Zealand and Scotland have led, first of all, as we just discussed, with dedicated advisory and coordinating bodies, commissions or agencies to oversee just transition, because it's an extremely complicated topic and involves every kind of government, as we've heard, so you need some sort of coordinating body.

Then the last piece is having clear environmental regulations that are consistent with net zero and with our climate goals. New Zealand and Denmark, for example, have both committed to winding down or phasing out oil production entirely, and that gives them a framework within which to design social and industrial policies.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you for that—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time now. I was a bit late on giving you the yellow card, so thank you.

Folks, as we're now at just under 12 minutes until the vote, I think we will suspend at this point and people can head back to the House. After the vote's done, I request that we come back. We have 10 minutes to get back and return to the discussion.

I need to check with the witnesses. We invited them to be here only until 4:30. Are you available to stay if we're able to reconvene after the bells and the vote? It will be probably 20 to 25 minutes.

[Éric Pineault]

My maximum would probably be 5:30.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We'll work to respect that.

It would be great if we could come back to at least have the NDP and Bloc questions for 12 minutes. Then we'll see if it's the will of the committee if we want to stay to do the in camera report. I don't know if we'll get much beyond that.

At this point, we'll suspend and everybody can go to vote. I'd ask you to come back when you can.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I call the meeting back to order.

Just before I start, I didn't welcome Mr. Sorbara and Mr. Morrice to the meeting, so welcome.

With that, we'll turn it over to Monsieur Simard, who will have six minutes for our witnesses.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Are all the witnesses connected, including Mr. Pineault?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

He said he was going to be available until 5:30, so we'll just....

I've stopped the clock, Mario.

Monsieur Pineault is showing as still being on. Monsieur Pineault, if you can hear us, please turn your camera on, as we have a member who would love to have a conversation with you.

Monsieur Simard, is there anyone else you wanted to start with? We're trying to get Monsieur Pineault back on.