Natural Resources Committee on May 9th, 2022

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I think the energy transition is about opportunities and innovation, so I believe we're on the same page there. Being the MP for Sudbury, I'm obviously very excited about the potential for mining and critical minerals in the green energy sector.

We need to recognize that change is uncomfortable for many, and I think government has a role to play with steering the ship to a positive and constructive framework.

How can government policy help industry and labour see the opportunities and the innovation potential in clean energy? What supports would you say we need to provide in order to do that?

[Merran Smith]

I see the work of this committee as very instrumental in supporting workers through that transition. I believe that one of the other panellists has identified some key steps—upskilling and connecting people with the jobs—and there's really a role for government to play to help with that, ensuring that we have university programs so we are building the skills in both the technical colleges and universities and matching those. That hasn't been done in Canada yet, so we need to get moving.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Smith.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're now going to Monsieur Simard, for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Joseph, would you agree with me in saying that the situation is favourable to oil companies?

[Shannon Joseph]

What situation are you talking about?

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I'm talking about the conflict in Ukraine and the COVID‑19 recovery, among other things.

Would you agree with me in saying that this situation is very favourable to the oil sector?

[Shannon Joseph]

I think there are major opportunities right now to bring an energy solution to these issues.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Imperial Oil had its best quarter in 30 years by raking in $1.2 billion in net profits, Synovus tripled its shareholders' dividends, and Chevron has quadrupled its profits since the conflict between Ukraine and Russia began.

Do you think the situation is favourable to the oil and gas sector?

[Shannon Joseph]

Is certainly an improvement over the period when the oil price was negative.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Yes, and there were support programs for the oil and gas sector when the oil price was negative.

Now, given the astronomical profits, it is hard for me to see how you can walk away from your obligations. I don't understand why the oil and gas sector is not prepared to invest to reduce the carbon footprint of the oil it is providing.

It is difficult for me to understand the logic behind this unless it is that, to give shareholders more profits, all Canadians must pay.

[Shannon Joseph]

In Canada, oil companies are making investments to reduce their emissions. Over the past 10 years, we have reduced our emissions by 33% in the natural gas sector and by 8% and 14% in the oil sector. We continue to make investments and to work with—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand that.

I am sure you would agree with me in saying that we have to listen to science.

If I told you that 400 academics signed a letter saying that carbon storage for the oil and gas sector was not working, would you say that the government is wise to invest in that kind of a strategy?

[Shannon Joseph]

That strategy is already working in Canada and around the world. We have systems that are working in Saskatchewan. That is why in Norway, in the United States and anywhere this issue is being taken seriously, investments are being made in carbon capture. That is what we want to do in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus, you have two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

This has been a fascinating study. It's certainly interesting with my good friends from the Conservative Party. I mean, they sort of tend to present this as some kind of climate change denial, a woke conspiracy to be mean to oil and gas workers. They denounce or ridicule any efforts with new opportunities in alternative energy.

Ms. Da Silva, you work with energy workers. Gil McGowan from the Alberta Federation of Labour came here, and he said that there was nothing theoretical about the transition. It's happening. Workers are expecting action.

Is it reasonable that we work on this? How do we work with workers, so we actually listen to them and not the ideologues that the Conservatives keep bringing out?

[Luisa Da Silva]

It is absolutely reasonable. I would recommend that the way we start is by working with the communities, rather than working with the workers in isolation on their own. It has to be a community effort. We ran a community session in Hinton, Alberta. We brought everybody into the discussion, from the food bank to religious people to the workers. It was a wholesome conversation. It showed them that this can be a just transition for their community, because that's what's important.

When you have perhaps one local employer who for many years has provided many jobs, it has also provided the local economy, so you need to address that as a wholesome entire ecosystem to bring that transition forward.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I've lived through a lot of unjust transitions, where by the time they showed up to do training, the plants were down and workers were left high and dry. I have been in Edmonton with IBEW, and they're looking for alternatives.

With the workers you're dealing with, are they resisting, or do they see that there's an opportunity and do they want to be part of it? How do we make sure that we're ready, so that we're transitioning into what's available, rather than picking up the pieces after it's too late?

[Luisa Da Silva]

We ran an Abacus poll last year that asked fossil fuel workers right across Canada these kinds of questions. Overwhelmingly, they were supportive of moving into the renewable sectors, but their concerns were consistent. They were concerned that they were going to be left behind if they were not provided with opportunities for upskilling and re-skilling within their communities.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know I'm running out of time, but could you get us that polling? That information on the recognition among the oil and gas energy workers and what they would like in moving forward is really fascinating.

[Luisa Da Silva]

I'd be happy to. Thank you.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I will mention to all of the witnesses, based on the conversation we're having, if there are additional thoughts you have following this, we invite additional submissions of up to 10 pages. You are able to send that in at any point up until around the May long weekend. That's when we're hoping to conclude the gathering of testimony for this study.

That is an open invitation for you to provide additional information that may come to mind that you think would be of use to us.

We're now going to go to Mr. Maguire for five minutes of questions.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I have a quick question for Ms. Joseph as well. You indicated that $20 billion is what the industry has paid in taxes to the Canadian coffers this year. We know that in the budget, there was 1.5 billion dollars' worth of tax credits. The industry has to put billions of dollars into investment in order to attract that.

Even at that, there's still an $18.5 billion surplus, I guess you can call it, of investment from taxes paid by the industry to the government. Is that correct?

[Shannon Joseph]

I'll just say that $20 billion is the average paid to all orders of government.