Natural Resources Committee on May 9th, 2022

[Shannon Joseph]

Those figures are wrong. I can send you a submission we made on subsidies.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

[Shannon Joseph]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time on that round.

I'll now go to Mr. Angus for his six-minute round.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you. I'm going to defer to my colleague, Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses who have joined us today. I've really enjoyed what you've had to say, but I have some deeply concerning questions. I want to preface my questions with my experience.

I really want to thank my colleague, the previous speaker, who really outlined the seriousness of the issues present to Canada, particularly with our economy as we contemplate massive amounts of money to bail out these companies, particularly the companies Ms. Joseph represents, which I've had experience with. I used to work for many of those companies, actually. I come from the Cold Lake oil sands. I worked in the oil sands. I want to talk to you a little bit about the companies that are asking for partnership with Canada and about how they've treated my community.

I am originally from the Fishing Lake Métis Settlement, which is an indigenous community that is currently still asking those oil companies to pay their taxes, just like many rural municipalities in Alberta right now. The president of the Rural Municipalities of Alberta association said that there are $253 million of unpaid taxes owed to rural communities in Alberta. These communities are predominantly indigenous and they need that money. They need to be able to pay for roads, services and basic things, but these companies are putting that debt—that unpaid tax burden—on regular, everyday people. It's killing communities.

I want to go further. These projects don't kill only communities. They affect families. I want to thank the witness from Iron and Earth for talking about families and workers. My father and I were energy workers. My father died on an energy site. Do you know what CNRL said? They said to take a hike. That is workers today.

Now they're asking for a partnership with the government. Since when do we partner with criminals?

It's absolutely unfair to the men and the women who work in these communities and to their families to be shackled to companies that don't want to pay their fair share, pay for their communities or pay for the basic programs and benefits that every worker deserves.

That's partly why I'm here today. It's to talk about that. This is a study on fairness and on equality. We've only talked about handing out money here. What about the families who need that money?

Ms. Joseph, these companies have made billions. The previous speaker mentioned $3.3 billion and still they want money. These companies aren't even paying their taxes. They're paying shareholders with that money. These are not good partnerships.

Ms. Joseph, when it comes to making sure that these communities have what they need, will you communicate to those members of your association to pay their fair share in Alberta? People aren't getting ahead. Are they going to pay their taxes?

[Shannon Joseph]

Our members pay taxes. There have been issues....

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

That's not correct. They don't pay their taxes. I want to correct the record there. They are not paying their taxes. Even a Conservative minister from the province of Alberta said that they had been doing everything they could in the last three years to get these companies to pay the $253 million, which has gone up in the last three years. That's $253 million to little tiny communities.

All I want you to say is, “Yes, these communities are going to pay their fair share.”

Are they going to pay their fair share?

[Shannon Joseph]

I know that the provinces, companies and municipalities are in discussion about what is a fair share and what is a correct price. The discussions are ongoing.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Is that no? What about the $253 million? There is a number: 253 million dollars' worth of unpaid surface tax. They need to pay it. Are they going to pay it?

[Shannon Joseph]

I can't comment further than what I have already said.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

With that answer, this is the kind of partnership we're expecting to gamble Canadians' future on, when these rural municipalities can't even pay for water or roads for their communities in our province of Alberta.

I have worked and people have died on these sites and they're asking for partnership when they can't even pay the measly $253 million that the companies—

[Shannon Joseph]

I will ensure that I endeavour—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

This is my time. I'm sorry, Ms. Joseph.

These companies need to demonstrate that they are good fiscal partners. These communities are suffering from massive infrastructure deficits.

I was a national director for the Métis Settlements in northern Alberta when the Chuckegg Creek wildfire went through. Almost every asset in that community that was met was at risk. We lost 15 houses. Do you know what the companies operating in that community went to defend first? Their oil assets, not the communities.

We're talking about the public dollar, the use of fairness and the use of equity in this study. We need to consider the fact that these companies have not paid their fair share and have allowed workers, families and rural municipalities to literally pay the price. That $253 million could have gone to people who are struggling right now, and we can't even get a clear answer for whether they're going to pay their taxes.

How is that equitable? How is that a future for Canadians?

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

That ends our first round of the six-minute questions.

Next, we have two for five minutes, and then two for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Bragdon, I'll turn it over to you now for your five minutes.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to each of the witnesses who appeared here today. I found what each of you had to say very informative.

Being from Atlantic Canada, from New Brunswick, let me start by saying that I would like to say thank you to those in the energy sector across the country and to the workers who have worked in that sector, many of whom travelled from Atlantic Canada out to the west to work and then came back and were able to help provide for their families.

Also, through transfer payments, we were able to have those kinds of health care services maintained in our province, schools continued to be built and we were able to have infrastructure, due in large part to those in our energy sectors.

I say thank you. Thank you for taking the time and coming here today and sharing your perspectives. We do appreciate that.

I have some perhaps rapid-fire questions for a few of the witnesses.

I'll start with you, Mr. McTeague.

Canada has amazing potential in the resource sector. We have some of the best environmental regulations in the world related to energy extraction and resource development, and the world is wanting more Canadian energy. They are demanding more Canadian energy.

What I'm hearing back home from folks in my region in Atlantic Canada is this: Why aren't we supplying the world with more Canadian energy when they're demanding it? Why can't we replace dictator oil with good democratic oil and energy resources when the world so desperately needs it and help transition the world from coal in certain regions, perhaps, over to good Canadian liquefied natural gas?

I wonder if you could speak to that and then be followed up by Ms. Johnson as quickly as possible, because I have several questions.

Mr. McTeague, it's over to you.

[Dan McTeague]

I think Canadians, for some time, have been able to take for granted cheap affordable energy, but we have seen policies consistently from this Parliament that have done significant damage, in terms of being able to achieve the ability for us not only to get our product to international markets but, most importantly, to help Canadians.

You don't have to go much further than looking at the value of the Canadian dollar. The last time we saw hundred-dollar oil, we saw the Canadian dollar at par with the U.S. greenback. We price everything based on that currency, and it's for that reason that Canadians continuously and consistently find themselves falling behind.

Make no mistake. When the world is saying, “We need more energy”, the alternative being Russia, the alternative being Iran, the alternative being Saudi Arabia and the alternative being, to some extent, Venezuela, it really behooves all leaders in this country to recognize the importance of our energy.

While it's not perfect, we don't do enough to celebrate the fact that we have a pretty significant clean menu of energy options. The last thing we should be doing is allowing other countries to menace the security of the world by using oil and natural gas.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Absolutely. Thank you, Mr. McTeague.

I want to go on from that particular aspect to the kinds of jobs the energy sector provides and the types of wages it provides. When we talk about what we're looking at transitioning to, my understanding is that, on a cold day in the winter in Alberta, solar and wind would be able to carry about 1% of the baseload of the energy needs of Albertans.

As much as we want to move in that direction—and it's great that there's alternative energy online—the realities are that it's not ready to replace what we are relying upon for energy. I think there's a great Canadian energy story to be told, and that also applies to us in the east.

I want to talk to Ms. Johnson.

How important is the energy sector to our region's economy through employment and also helping our regions prosper, which have been known as have-not regions? It has helped to transition our region to a part that could actually be contributing to the overall economy of Canada and growing and prospering.

[Charlene Johnson]

Thank you for your question.

With respect to Newfoundland and Labrador, oil and gas accounts for about 25% of our GDP. In my opening remarks, I mentioned that we represent about 460 members. About 15% of those come from Nova Scotia and New Brunswick actually, because when Newfoundland and Labrador is doing well in the industry, Atlantic Canada is doing well, as well as Alberta and Ontario when it comes to manufacturing jobs.

When I look out my office window, the very familiar Atlantic towing orange vessels are there. That's a J.D. Irving company. Hundreds of people from rural Newfoundland and Labrador work on those vessels at high-paying jobs. They go back to the rural communities, volunteer and contribute to the tax base. I can't overstate how important this industry is.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Ms. Johnson.

I know I only have a couple of seconds here, but I want to thank each of you again. I think there's a way forward, because Canadian energy has tremendous potential and it is needed not only here within Canada but around the world. We need to be talking more about that, not less about it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

The five minutes goes by quickly, I apologize.

We're going to move over to Ms. Lapointe for five minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Chair Aldag.

Thank you to all the witnesses for joining us here today.

My questions will be directed to Ms. Merran Smith.

It's a pleasure to see you here again at committee, Ms. Smith. When you last appeared during this committee's study on an emissions cap for the oil and gas sector, you said:

...Canada is well positioned to be a leader in clean energies.... We have the metals, minerals and opportunities to be a leader in batteries and other storage technologies, along with carbon capture and storage. We can use our clean energy to produce low-carbon metals, minerals, steel, cars and other manufactured products.

Based on the statement you made at committee, can you tell us your thoughts on what a fair and equitable transition for workers could look like when we're moving towards these cleaner energy options?

[Merran Smith]

As I've said, there's huge potential for jobs across this country in both energy as well as in low-carbon industries, things like increasing our mining sector, increasing manufacturing of things like batteries and things that really fit with Canada and what Canada has, such as our critical metals and minerals, for example, and our clean electricity.

I want to stress one thing: Canada is not in control of the energy transition. In fact, it's a global event that's happening. What we're seeing right now with the crisis in Ukraine and Russia is a short-term crisis around energy supply, primarily oil and gas, but it's also spurred the EU, which has been the leader in the energy transition, to reduce its dependence on imported fossil fuels. I really think that foreshadows where the global economy is heading. For this committee's discussion, we really need to be thinking about where the puck is going.

I live here in British Columbia where we're building LNG Canada. I think it will be coming online in 2025. It will be producing liquefied natural gas for export. That project has been years in the making, and, I think, if we look at what the IEA is projecting, they are projecting that we are already at peak oil demand right now, and, while gas will continue to increase, we reach peak gas around 2035.

Let's look at what we are going to be investing in now to set us up for those jobs of the future. Those energies are clean electricity, storage—whether batteries or other forms of storage—and hydrogen. Here's an opportunity to take advantage of Canada's assets right now. Blue hydrogen is what's being invested in, in a number of cases, which uses our natural gas. Once we have built out more of our clean electricity supplies, we can make that hydrogen out of water and clean electricity, and that's going to be an export product.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Ms. Smith, when you talk about these new job opportunities, can you tell us if the skills are largely transferrable?

[Merran Smith]

Yes, many of the skills are largely transferrable. We're looking for electricians, welders, construction workers and engineers. We are looking for people who are doing the same types of assessments, environmental assessments and marketing. All of those skills are directly transferrable.