Natural Resources Committee on May 30th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good afternoon. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 24 of the House of Commons standing committee on natural resources. Pursuant to standing order 108(2), the committee is continuing its study on creating a fair and equitable Canadian energy transformation.

Today is our seventh meeting with witnesses for this study. I'd like to thank our witnesses for their patience for the second time, as we were interrupted by votes. We'll be getting under way right away.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House Order of November 25, 2021. Now that we're in session, I would like remind everyone that screenshots are no longer allowed and taking photos of the screen is not permitted. The proceedings are televised and made available via the House of Commons website.

For the witnesses, I'll recognize you by name before speaking. For those who are on Zoom, there's simultaneous translation. You have the choice of choosing the floor—the language being spoken on the floor—or English or French. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

If you wish to raise your hand, please just use the virtual “raise hand” function. When we get into the question and answer session, I generally allow the members who are asking the question to choose whom they are going to be speaking with. If you raise your hand but aren't selected, it's usually because the member has something specific they're going for and may not get to you. Feel free to raise your hand indicating that you would like to weigh in.

For the witnesses, we also use a card system. I'll give you the yellow card when there are 30 seconds left in the time. The red card means the time's up. Don't stop mid-sentence; just finish what you're saying and then we'll go on to the next person for their opening statements or the next member for their questioning. We'll be going to go through opening statements and then we'll get into questions.

I'd like to welcome Ms. Brière and Mr. Morrice to our session today.

Mr. Angus, what's your point of order?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm looking at what we have left on our witness docket. I know we're trying to wrap this up. I'm getting very concerned that key witnesses that we've asked for are not being invited.

We had Indigenous Climate Action, Indigenous Clean Energy, the Athabasca Chipewyan, the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs, and the Office of the Wet’suwet’en. We've asked for the Just Transition Centre and the mayors of Calgary, Edmonton and Wood Buffalo, who have an obvious stake in this. We also had the Labour Leading on Climate Initiative, the Workers' Action Centre, Canada's Building Trades Unions, Destination Zero and Oil Change International.

These aren't superfluous witnesses. These are people who have a direct say. I'm getting very concerned that we're going to try to wrap up this report without getting the full picture and the full length of voices that need to be heard to do this study justice.

I want to know why these key witnesses are not on our list.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Angus, I'll respectfully suggest that we have that discussion at the end of today's meeting. We could perhaps take the last five minutes. We only have House resources in the room until six o'clock. We're late getting started. This is the second time we've had this group of witnesses, who have very important things to say.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I understand that. It's just that some of the witness that I had asked for have been removed from the list. I want that on the record.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

I commit to our coming back to addressing your question at the end of the meeting.

I would like to get into opening statements.

Mr. Simard, do you have a question or a point of order?

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I just want to make a comment along the same lines as Mr. Angus.

In recent weeks, I've submitted a substantial list of witnesses, but only one has been kept. I think this is unacceptable.

We are asked to find witnesses. Now, I don't know what the basis for the selection of witnesses is, but there is certainly an inequity if I compare the list of witnesses we receive with the list of witnesses that has been submitted.

I don't want the committee to waste time unnecessarily, and I want to hear from witnesses. However, this will need to be discussed.

I, too, wanted to speak while the committee was not in camera.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's fair enough. Everybody has the ability to ask these questions. We will get to an explanation.

Right now, I would like to welcome our witnesses on the study on creating a fair and equitable Canadian energy transformation.

For today, we have from the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, Chief Sharleen Gale, chair of the board of directors. From the Indian Resource Council Inc., we have Chief Delbert Wapass and Steve Saddleback. From the Metis Settlements General Council, we have Herb Lehr. From the National Coalition of Chiefs, we have Dale Swampy.

With that, we will go to Chief Gale for a five-minute opening statement.

The floor is yours when you are ready.

[Chief Sharleen Gale, Chair of the Board of Directors, First Nations Major Projects Coalition]

Good afternoon. I'm pleased to be here today in my capacity as chair of the board of directors of the First Nations Major Projects. I am speaking to you from my home of the Fort Nelson First Nation in Treaty 8 territory.

The First Nation Major Projects Coalition is a non-partisan, business-focused coalition of over 85 first nation members from across the country. We support our member nations with the tools, capacity support and advice related to corporate structures and benefit-sharing models, as well as tools to promote environmental protection and effective participation in impact assessments.

On behalf of the First Nation Major Projects Coalition, I would like to start by expressing our support for the Government of Canada's commitment to achieving net-zero emissions by 2050.

I also want to remind this committee of the message I left the last time I was here, in 2021. We need to ensure that the measures put in place to achieve the Government of Canada's target of net-zero emissions by 2050 do not disadvantage first nations communities, further creating hardship to indigenous communities. In any policy, hardship should not fall disproportionately upon first nation communities.

We recommend that you build indigenous opportunities into the energy transition, in particular clean energy opportunities with indigenous equity ownership of new projects, and financing/government collateralization of new investments. We emphasize that this degree of indigenous involvement in investment brings value not only to first nations but also to Canada's economy, in the form of investor certainty.

The coalition's first nation members are looking for ambitious actions from the Government of Canada as part of a global effort to reduce carbon pollution. As you work to develop recommendations on a fair and equitable Canadian energy transformation, you must never lose sight of the fact that opportunities for economic development for first nations in Canada have never been fair or equitable. Long-standing disadvantages present barriers to full first nation participation in the labour force and impair the capacity of first nations to compete for capital to support project development.

The development of a national benefits-sharing framework led by the Department of Natural Resources is viewed by the coalition as having the potential to address first nations concerns around fairness and equality when it comes to major projects and the energy transition, provided the framework is implemented correctly. For this to be achieved by the framework, we need to improve access to capital, using government loan guarantees as well as continued strategic investment in indigenous capacity and business readiness. First nations need to be included in the strategic planning and decision-making process for the transition to a net-zero economy. We need to do this in a manner that is consistent with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Despite the challenges faced by first nations, we have many positive stories to share. For instance, the First Nation Major Projects Coalition was proud to support the first nations leadership in the development of the Tu Deh-Kah geothermal clean energy project, led by my home community of the Fort Nelson First Nation. This project is an excellent example of clean energy investment that has enabled a transition away from fossil-fuel driven electrical generation, indigenous equity ownership, local indigenous jobs for those previously in the oil and gas sector and indigenous board management level decision-making. All four of these aspects should be at the centre of Canadian net-zero policies and should serve as a foundation for principles being developed to guide a just transition.

We must use every ounce of our ingenuity to decarbonize our way of life, and in order to do that successfully, we need to ensure that vulnerable communities are not left behind in the transition to a net-zero economy. A fair and just transition for first nations requires recognition that we are starting from a significant deficit in terms of both employment and education. Skills development, preferred access to employment opportunities and targeted investments are all necessary components of a fair and equitable Canadian energy transition.

I'd like to thank you for inviting me to speak today. I look forward to hearing from your study.

Mussi cho. Hiy hiy.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Great, Chief Gale. Thank you so much for your opening comments.

I will now go to the Indian Resource Council, and I have two members.

Who would like to provide the opening statement?

[Chief Delbert Wapass, Board Member, Indian Resource Council Inc.]

It will be me, Delbert Wapass.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

I'll turn the floor over to you.

You have five minutes for your opening statement.

[Chief Delbert Wapass]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to speak to you today.

My name is Delbert Wapass and I'm the former chief of Thunderchild First Nation and currently a board member on the Indian Resource Council. Our organization represents over 130 first nations that produce oil and gas or that have a direct interest in the oil and gas industry. Our mandate is to advocate for federal policies that will improve and increase economic development opportunities for first nations and their members.

I'm very pleased your committee is studying barriers to indigenous economic development, because we face a great many, not least from federal policies and legislation. Our communities benefit from involvement in oil and gas. The relationship has not always been perfect, but now it is positive and getting better. We are more involved in oil and gas jobs in reclamation, in procurement and in equity shares than ever. There isn't another industry in the country that has engaged indigenous peoples more meaningfully, in terms of the scale of own-source revenues, than the oil and gas industry have, and that's a fact.

That's why it is so important to our economic development and self-determination that Canada have a healthy and competitive oil and gas sector, but it often feels as though Canada is trying to eliminate the sector instead of support it. The cost overruns on TMX that indigenous groups want to buy, the cancellation of Keystone XL, the cancellation of Northern gateway, the tanker ban, the Impact Assessment Act, Bill C-69, the lack of LNG export capacity, the cancellation of Teck Frontier mine, the tens of millions in royalties that we lost in the past decade due to the differential in price between WCS and Brent crude—these have directly harmed our communities. These have cost first nations hundreds of millions in lost own-source revenues. I think everyone on this committee knows that none of our communities can afford that.

The lost own-source revenues and royalties are one big thing, but on top of that, these missed opportunities have cost our people procurement opportunities that probably would have numbered in the billions. When you talk about economic development, that's what's important: Giving our people well-paid jobs, getting first nations-owned businesses big contracts from trucking and catering to earth moving and reclamation so they can grow their businesses and hire more people and create opportunities for our entrepreneurs. There is no sector—no solar panel installation, no tourism, no golf courses—that can replace the economic opportunity that oil and gas provides for first nations, so you can eliminate the biggest barrier for indigenous economic development if you stop hampering our oil and gas industry.

I note that government is even now considering a cap on emissions, which is poorly drafted and which will in practice be a cap on production. Instead, I ask that you promote and encourage our involvement by making sure that first nations have the access to capital we need to be real partners in new projects.

I know you've heard in this study how [Technical difficulty—Editor]. I and our chairman are also involved in the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation. We've been able [Technical difficulty—Editor] in power plants, carbon capture facilities, pipelines and more, but at the federal level some people consider government-backed loans to indigenous communities to get involved in these things to be fossil fuel subsidies.

If the federal government is truly committed to reconciliation and the principles of UNDRIP, then you should be supportive of whatever kind of economic development we want to be part of, regardless of what industry it's in. You shouldn't be picking and choosing for us. You don't know better than we do what the right balance is for development in our territories. For our members, for many other first nations, oil and gas provide the best opportunity. It doesn't mean that we aren't interested in other sectors or that we don't want to be part of the net-zero economy, but this week of all weeks it should be obvious that having a strong oil and gas sector that has meaningful indigenous involvement and ownership and that is a global leader in environmental, social and governance principles is in the interests of all Canadians. I can tell you that it is in the interests of the Indian Resource Council.

Regarding the just transition, that's been put forward without consulting nations and their communities. It was handed down without any discussion. These discussions need to take place at the chief and council tables, not simply in Ottawa, for moving oil gas to alternative energy.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's perfect. Thank you for your comments.

I do just want to check something.

Is the translation coming through, Mario?

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Given that we had interruptions last time, I wanted to let the witness finish his remarks, but there has been no interpretation for some time. It would be a good idea to fix the problem before the next intervention so that the interpreters can do their job.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Absolutely. Yes, we wanted to make sure.

I'm going to go to you, Charlie, in a second.

I was going to say that when we get to our next witness, Mr. Lehr, I'll get you to start with a sentence, and we'll make sure that the translation is coming through. I'll then start the clock, and we'll get going.

Mr. Angus, please go ahead.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, I want to follow-up what my colleague said. It's not fair that Mr. Simard has to always advocate for himself regarding translation.

We are supposed to have this worked out. There's supposed to be a sound check. I was having a difficult time hearing, and it makes it difficult to do my work if I can't hear properly.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm hoping that everybody did their sound checks, you included, Mr. Angus. Although, you're observing today—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

They didn't ask me to do a sound check, no. But I'm ready.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

It was Mr. Desjarlais today.

We will do everything we can to make sure that everybody gets heard in both official languages.

Mr. Lehr, if you would like to take a minute to give us your opening sentence. I'll go to the French channel, and make sure that it's coming through okay. I'll then start the clock, and we'll give you your five minutes.

Again, I apologize for the interruptions we're having here today.

[Herb Lehr, President, Metis Settlements General Council]

Not a problem, Chair.

It's Herb Lehr, president of the Metis Settlements General Council.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

It seems to be coming through.

Monsieur Simard, if there are any issues, I try to pop back and forth between English and French. If anybody sees that there's a problem, just flag it, and we'll stop at that time.

Mr. Lehr, I'll reset the clock for five minutes, and I'll turn it over to you to start with your opening statement.

[Herb Lehr]

Thank you, committee members, for the invitation to speak about a just transition to a new economy.

Natural resource exploitation has undeniably brought both blessings and misfortune to our communities. The most significant benefit has been high wages for relatively unskilled labour. The negatives, however, are more far-reaching and insidious. The high wages have brought with them a raft of social problems, local economies dependent on a single industry and irreversible damage to the land and environment. These are not values that are consistent with our traditional values, but because of our limited financial resources and a reliance on provincial governments that can’t see beyond the quick payoff of oil and gas, we've been forced into this boom and bust cycle that isn’t good for anyone.

The Metis Settlements Accord of 1990 and the subsequent provincial legislation brought the promise of the settlements charting their own course, but the reality was self-governance under the auspices of a provincial government almost solely focused on resource extraction. A provincial resource co-management agreement appeared to be the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but the province’s dependence on non-renewable resources became ours, and this continues today with recent discussions by the province to now move into mineral exploration.

Recognizing the opportunities that our non-indigenous neighbours enjoy, our leadership felt little choice but to exploit the opportunities available to the settlements and prioritized education and training geared toward resource extraction industries. The unpredictability of this type of economy, coupled with the impact on our land, air and environment, and most importantly, our people, means that we must do a factory reset and return to our indigenous values and live in concert with those values and realign our priorities with them in mind.

Alberta has told us that we have access to funding through the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation, but again, the opportunities offered through this program are geared to exploitation of our land and people. To follow through with a reset, new, additional financial supports and investments will be required to advance our aspirations of food sovereignty and the pursuit of economic opportunities that align with our values, such as new horticulture ventures, solar technology, aerated concrete and hemp construction, as well as indigenous tourism, to name a few.

Some of this work has been initiated through the federal strategic partnerships initiative, which has enabled the Metis settlements to establish an arm's-length investment institution, the Metis Settlements Development Corporation, but with more significant investments, our reliance on non-renewable resource exploitation can eventually become a thing of the past.

The Metis Settlements General Council is also hoping to enter into an agreement on behalf of the eight settlements directly with the federal government on an extension to the site rehabilitation program. The program, which to date, has been administered by the province, has shown some promise, but some of our communities were not able to benefit fully from the program. Greater access will help us repair some of the damage caused to our lands through resource extraction. A just transition would also include compensating us for the carbon taxes our members and communities have paid while also planting and protecting millions of trees.

Ultimately, we know that self-government, rather than self-governance, is the key to truly determining our own future, but our shorter term goals include working more closely with the federal government on the opportunities mentioned previously, as well as accessing resources for more diverse education and skills training, and more culturally appropriate and sustainable infrastructure and housing. It is investments in these that will help set us on a renewed course that leads us to a brighter, more hopeful future.

Kinana'skomitina'wa'w.

I yield any remaining time to the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Great. Thank you so much for your opening comments.

Lastly, for opening statements, we're going to go to the president of the National Coalition of Chiefs, Dale Swampy.

Sir, I'll turn it over to you if you're ready to go.

Mr. Swampy, are you there? If you're ready to go, you can unmute yourself. When you start talking, I'll start your five minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Hello, Chair. We can't hear you. There's no audio for the floor.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Can you hear me now?

Okay. Mr. Swampy, can you hear me?

We're just checking with the technical team. I'm making sure that we have Mr. Swampy here. I can see him.