Natural Resources Committee on June 1st, 2022

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you again.

You speak about these new jobs in the green economy, and yet Jerry Dias has said, “What jobs?” The former president of Unifor is saying, “What jobs?” The Conference Board of Canada suggests there are 27 jobs in the green economy for every 100 jobs that we're going to intentionally dislocate from the oil and gas economy. Tell me again how you think this is just.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

There are an incredible number of jobs within the oil and gas industry just on lowering emissions. The good news is that a lot of the work and the skill sets we'll need in order to do things move over—particularly with hydrogen, which I think Minister Wilkinson will tell you has huge growth potential in this country; and we have a good strategy for that. We need the skill sets of the people who are currently in this industry.

There's nothing new, necessarily, that's happening, but there is going to be some pivoting, and there is going to be some training. Our biggest issue right now, though—and I'll say it again—is that we have a labour shortage in the energy industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time on that.

I do want to apologize. In my haste to get the meeting started, I didn't actually welcome our official guests here today. I would like to welcome the honourable Jonathan Wilkinson, Minister of Natural Resources, back to the table for, I think, the fifth time in recent weeks. Also, welcome to the honourable Seamus O'Regan, Minister of Labour. Thank you, both, for joining us and for standing by today while we had multiple votes.

I also want to welcome Mr. Zimmer and Madame Brière, who was also here.

With that, we're ready to go over to our second questioner, Madam Viviane Lapointe, for six minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Chair Aldag.

Thank you, ministers, for joining us today.

My first question is regarding the timing of legislation. Now, we know that preparing Canadians for the just transition and equipping them with the skills they need for sustainable jobs is a priority for our government. So could the ministers explain why action on legislation wasn't taken sooner?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Two years in, you'd think...

Our government's plan on legislation has always been clear. We want to deliver a comprehensive action plan. We want to make sure that when we do, we listen to energy workers. As I said before, it's energy workers who are going to be building up CCUS and developing low-carbon fuels and hydrogen.

As I keep repeating, particularly when I speak to unions in the consultations and meetings that I've had with them, this isn't a matter of their being included or making sure that they're at the table. None of this happens without them. None of it. They will be leading the charge here.

Over the past few years, we have made some strategic investments in skills training, regional strategies and projects right across Canada that create sustainable jobs. I think Minister Wilkinson can talk about some important announcements he made today.

Listen, moving forward on legislation is going to require some coordinated planning to make sure that Canadians have the sustainable jobs to go to that will carry them from tomorrow into the future, and the country with them.

We are establishing legislative principles in line with international best practices. Part of that is having those consultations, which are meaningful.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Let me add to what Minister O'Regan said. Certainly the legislation is very important, but so is ensuring that we hear the voices and perspectives of Canadians as we actually shape that.

The consultations began pre-COVID. Obviously they couldn't continue during the COVID pandemic. We have re-started those consultations recently, and those consultations are now effectively at an end. There are still some ongoing indigenous consultations.

I would also say that there's a related initiative, which I think will be quite important going forward. Earlier today I launched the regional energy and resource tables, which are a series of engagements to help identify regional economic strategies collaboratively with the provinces, territories and indigenous communities. These will bring growth and economic opportunities for workers and communities going forward.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Wilkinson, you just announced the creation of regional energy and resource tables.

Could you outline the significance of this announcement and what it means for the transformation of the economy and the creation of more sustainable jobs?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you for the question.

As I said in my opening remarks, I had the pleasure today of launching the first phase of the regional energy and resource tables as part of our commitment to working with regional partners, specifically the provinces, territories, Indigenous communities and regional development agencies, towards a prosperous, low-carbon future. In the coming weeks, I will begin a regional process to define the main regional opportunities in relation to our commitment to a fair transition.

Each province is unique, as are the economic opportunities in each province. The approaches taken for the transition to clean energy will differ across the country. I think this will be a very important process.

Would you like to add anything, Mr. O'Regan?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Yes, I can tell you there was a great deal of excitement today. I'm in St. John's for the Energy NL conference. Just to give you an indication of where things are going, they used to be called Noia, the old oil association. Now they're embracing renewables and looking at interties, and workers are embracing them. There was a heavy union contingent at our meetings today.

What Canadians want to hear are realistic solutions. If you're going to deal with this realistically, you have to deal with the very real fact that this is a big country with different regions that have different strengths and attributes. These are things that were top of mind for me as a Newfoundlander in my role previously and something that's top of mind for Jonathan as somebody from Saskatchewan and a B.C. MP. There are different strengths and weaknesses in different parts of the country. If we're going to be effective in reaching net zero and using all of our strengths in different parts of the country, we have to attune to local strengths.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Ministers. We look forward to the second wave of tables when they come to Ontario.

How is our government working with and supporting indigenous communities through the energy transition?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

This past March, I visited Cowessess First Nation. They have a renewable energy storage facility. Chief Cadmus Delorme wanted me to see their new 10-megawatt solar power farm. This is the country's first hybrid renewable energy system for solar and wind, which store in batteries.

Indigenous communities right across the country, like Cowessess in Saskatchewan, are already doing the work. We need to listen to them, learn from them, and figure out how best to support them. That is a big part of what we're doing now, during the consultations. We also have programs like the sectoral workforce solutions program and UTIP, which we can leverage to support these communities, but a lot of the work is yet to be done and we want to make sure we do it right.

There are a number of first nations communities that are already well attuned to this. I spoke about the labour shortage earlier. There are a number of people.... I think particularly of Lyle Daniels, who is the indigenous advisor to the Building Trades of Alberta. He's attuned to the fact that there's a real effort by a number of unions out west. I'm thinking of Building Trades of Alberta particularly, which is working with first nations directly on reserve to try to get more indigenous young people into the trades. We have a population boom in many of our first nations communities. People are hungry to work, contribute and make their way in life, and the trades could be an answer for them. It could also certainly help our energy industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time on this one.

We'll now go to Monsieur Simard.

Mr. Simard, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I am pleased to see you again, Mr. Wilkinson. I will start with the compliments before I get to the criticism.

Thank you for your follow‑up on the Ariane Phosphate file. I appreciate that very much.

The current study pertains to a fair and equitable transition. The word “transition” means moving from one thing to another. Yesterday, a fairly simple question occurred to me in this regard.

In your opinion, has Canada started this transition?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I would say, Monsieur Simard—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

My question was for Mr. Wilkinson.

I am sorry. I do not have anything against you, Mr. O'Regan.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

You like me better than him, Mr. Simard.

That is an important question. The entire world has to undergo an energy transition to reduce greenhouse gases and fight climate change.

The International Energy Agency foresees a reduction in oil consumption by 2030 or 2035, and then a reduction in the use of natural gas. That will be followed by a transition to renewable energy forms and hydrogen.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

You are projecting me into the future.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

There is significant documentation about this.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

You are optimistic. That is good; we have to be. It seems to me, however, that Canada has not begun this fair transition. Let me explain why.

The concept of a transition has two parts. It requires reducing greenhouse gas emissions. In defining this transition, we talk about a process to manage the transition from an economy based on fossil fuels to a net-zero or greener economy.

In your announcements, I see an attempt to stay in an economy based exclusively on fossil fuels, which is unfortunate. When I look at the investments that have been made in natural resources, I see a lot in the gas and oil sector, but very few in the forestry sector, for instance.

I get the sense that the transition everyone is talking about has not yet started in Canada. We are talking about it, but there is no action.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Minister Wilkinson, we can't hear you. Can you hear me? You're on mute.

I've stopped your clock. We didn't hear your response.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As you probably know, I disagree with you on that. Like our allies in Europe and the United States, we have made investments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and to make the energy transition, but in way that maintains a strong Canadian economy. The forestry sector is certainly important, as is the energy sector.

So we have to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in both of these sectors. That of course has to be done in accordance with recommendations based on climate change science. At the same time, though, we also have to ensure a prosperous future for Canadians.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

That is the crux of the issue. A fair and equitable transition requires courageous action, but I have yet to see that.

In my opinion, there are two basic principles. First, we have to reduce our carbon footprint, which is not happening now. In Canada, the largest sector of the economy that creates greenhouse gas is the oil and gas sector. We have not yet reached the transition, because the government is supporting this sector financially.

Secondly, we have to stop funding fossil fuels by 2023, as you promised. In recent months, the government's financial support for Trans Mountain has reached $30 billion. The amount set out in the budget for carbon capture is $2.6 billion. Yet there is absolutely nothing for the other sectors of economic activity.

The concept of a fair transition includes environmental justice and climate justice. We are trying to reduce the disproportionate effects that climate change will have on certain categories of individuals who are somewhat more marginalized. In my opinion, what you are doing is a complete failure in terms of the transition.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I agree with you that we have to do more to fight climate change and limit its effects on Canadians, and of course on the most affected groups, including the first nations.

It is very important to have a plan to tackle these issues and adapt to climate change. Moreover, Minister Guilbeault is working on that right now.

I must disagree with your statement that we have not done anything for all the other sectors.

The oil and transport sectors account for the most greenhouse gas emissions. We have done a lot in these two sectors to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. We have also taken a number of steps with other sectors, such as the aluminum sector in Quebec and the steel sector in Ontario.

We must of course do more. We have to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but that must be done in accordance with science-based recommendations. That is exactly what we are doing right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay. Thank you.

Now we're going to go to you, Mr. Angus, for his first six minutes.