Evidence of meeting #25 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transition.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I'll just put my magic wand down and I'll ask him.
Dr. Tricia Williams stated that, within Canada, they have no idea what sectors are going to “be affected by energy transitions” in terms of “labour and skills”, but “that analysis simply hasn't been done”. The environment commissioner said the same thing, that there were no plans in place. That's on your watch, sir.
I'm asking, why are we wasting time with the public, telling them that you're going to have this big just transition plan, when you don't know where those clean jobs are, and as you say, your biggest concern right now is keeping people in the oil patch.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
My biggest concern is making sure that the workers of this country are in place to make sure they do the work we need them to do, which is to lower emissions wherever and wherever we can find them, and that we build up renewables in this country. I don't know who else you expect to do it. It is the workers of this country.
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I know, but Dr. Williams said you guys haven't even analyzed—
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Mr. Angus, I haven't spoken to Dr. Williams. I've spoken to a lot of interesting workers in this country, though—a lot of workers.
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I'll finish quickly on this, because Liberal James Maloney asked the same question. He said:
...I want to get away from a situation where we have people hauling out reports that were too thin and then, on the other hand, people saying that all politicians aren't telling the truth and so on. What I want to focus on is, where are these jobs that are going to replace the ones we have now? The reality is that our economy is very reliant on the oil and gas sector.
I'm hearing from your own Liberals that they have no clue as to where you're going to create these clean energy jobs. That's what the environment commissioner said, that you don't have a plan for just transition.
Why don't we just say that just transition is a great green screen, but our focus is now and has been the work in the oil patch. That's why you helped with TMX. Just say it, and then we can move on.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Hogwash. We just made an announcement today on regional tables that I think—
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
—will make sure that we bring workers together with industry, that we sit down and we start to hammer out the solutions that are specific to different areas of this country.
I don't think we have ever been more focused on lowering emissions, but it is hard work. It is complicated work, and it is certainly work that we are going to need to do together. That requires making sure that you have workers on board.
I can tell you right now that there are a lot of workers who hear talk about this and the implication that there's some sort of grand master plan that should have been written up by now that they've been left out of. We've been very clear with them that we are not proceeding with anything without them.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
I'm sorry, but we're over time here, so I'm going to end this one with regret. I'd like to continue to hear it, but we're going to stop and go to the next person.
We're up with Mr. Bragdon.
I'm just looking at the clock, and we only have 10 minutes left, and the next round would be 15 minutes, so I'm going to shorten it a bit to maybe three and a half minutes, if that works.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
My questions will be addressed to Minister O'Regan as well, a fellow Atlantic Canadian, and we'll try to do this rapid fire as much as possible.
Minister, with both of our being from Atlantic Canada, we know how vital the natural resource sector is for our labour, for our workers and for our region's economy, and that the potential is yet to be fully realized as it relates to our natural resource sector. A lot of our time in Ottawa is spent here, it seems, talking about the perils of such sectors, but I think there could be a whole lot more talk about the potential within these sectors, particularly for the Atlantic Canadian region as well. In Newfoundland and Labrador, you know how vital this sector is to our region's economy .
We hear often about just transition; we hear it thrown around a lot. Industry and workers do not like ambiguity around this. In fact they hate it, so could you give us your definition of what a just transition for workers means? How would you define it?
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
It means that we have the ability to point workers in the right direction where we need them to lower emissions, to build up renewables and to continue the prosperity of this country. In fact, I think our workers are so essential to the development of this country and its energy sector that they will be absolutely vital in the next big national challenge, which is taking the fourth biggest producer of oil and gas in the world, a prosperous G7 country, and dramatically lowering our emissions and meeting those targets. That is not easy, and it's going to require every one of the workers who is currently within our energy sector and then some.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Thank you, Minister.
I think you would very much agree with me that right now, with the geopolitical circumstances we're facing in the world, it certainly appears by all indicators that there's an ongoing and increasing demand for oil and gas and energy, especially safe and reliable providers of that energy to help transition countries that may be dependent on unsavoury nations, dictators and despots for their energy, and Canada could step up and help solve that problem.
You even mentioned that we need more workers in this field. We need to make sure that Canada is helping to step in and fill the void and the vacuum that's being created right now, and there's an opportunity.
I wonder, Minister, if you have some thoughts on that. How can Canada step in and solve the geopolitical problem by using our energy resources, which are proven to be some of the most effective, ethical and best environmentally regulated natural resources in the world?
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
I will say this, Mr. Bragdon, and I've said it several times publicly. The issue of the labour shortage in our industry is very acute. I think one of the things we have to be very clear about is that we have to make sure we get rid of this ambiguity you speak to wherever we can.
There's an awful lot of anxiety among energy workers in this country when they hear phrases like “just transition”, so we need to make sure that we keep them in place, in play, and that they have a clear understanding of how much we appreciate their talents in building up this energy industry in this country. Now we need them to lower emissions and build up renewables.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Thank you, Minister.
I know my time is short, but I do want to just say that we're in a transition, but we want to transition to prosperity, not to poverty. I think workers want to make sure that they have jobs, that they can put food on their tables and that they can keep providing for their families without chasing sometimes nebulous ideals that are put out there without the substantive realities of being able to provide for their families.
Can you guarantee, as the Minister of Labour, that, during this just transition, you will not be transitioning jobs out of rural communities and forcing people to relocate for work?
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
Sorry, I'm just going to jump in. We're out of time, but I'll give you a few sentences to respond to that question, and then we'll move to our next person.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
I have to be very careful how I answer that.
That's not the intention, certainly. But I come from Newfoundland. I'm getting on a plane tonight to go to Ottawa, and I can tell you that about a third of that plane, going to either Toronto or Montreal, is going to be filled with Newfoundlanders on their way to Alberta or Saskatchewan. That's what happens. There are lots of people who move back and forth across this country. It helps build the energy sector in this country.
Listen, we want to make sure that energy sector workers understand how valuable they are and that they are needed if we are to go forward on what I call our “next great national mission”, which is lowering emissions and building up renewables. They are the workers to do it. They are the only ones to do it. I don't know anybody who thinks this can happen without them. I look at them and tell them, “None of this will happen without you. We cannot move forward without you. You will lead the way.” The workers of this country will lead.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
I'm going to stop there and go to Mr. Chahal, who will have three and a half minutes.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister Wilkinson and Minister O'Regan, for joining us today at committee.
I'm just going to get right into it. I'm elected from Calgary, a city in a province whose economy is heavily reliant on energy and emission-heavy sectors. Workers are facing uncertainty during the energy transition, and these workers want to make sure they have sufficient opportunities available to them during the transition.
Can you talk about the steps the government is taking to ensure that sufficient opportunities are available for workers who will be affected by the transition and that the labour market shifts arising from the transition are smooth and equitable?
We'll have Minister O'Regan first, and then a follow-up with Minister Wilkinson.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Look, Mr. Chahal, we want it to be as smooth as we can possibly make it. You can't make any guarantees on that, because contrary to what some may think, this is a market-led economy.
The transition to a low-carbon economy is a massive economic opportunity. One of the things we can step in and do, when we've been doing it with sectoral supports that have been announced by Minister Qualtrough, is look at where those areas are and where we can help in making sure the training is available on the ground.
A lot of it, I can tell you, is by working with unions to make sure that job training is available through their facilities, through the UTIP program, for instance.
Invariably, when I visit your fair province, I am often with the Building Trades of Alberta and their facilities, working with them, supporting their efforts—and we're talking about substantial sums of money—to make sure they are pivoting over to areas where there is growth.
I just have to reiterate one thing. We've been talking an awful lot about what government, government, government should be doing, but let's not forget that oil and gas companies in this country are doing extraordinarily well. Yes, I made sure we worked very hard to ensure their sustainability through the twin crises that we had to go through over the past couple of years, the pandemic and an oil price war. I didn't really necessarily do it just to see share buybacks and executive compensation; I want them to invest in their workers. They need to invest in their workers. They need to do that because they are going to need these people in order to lower emissions and build up renewables.
A lot of this training and a lot of the resources that are required for this transition will and must come from the private sector.
You had asked that Minister Wilkinson speak to this too, so I'll leave some room for him.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC
Thank you.
Look, let's just step back. The world presently faces two great challenges. One is the challenge of energy and security, and the other is the existential challenge of climate change. Let's be clear. This is a science issue; it is not a partisan issue.
We need to ensure that we are moving forward in a manner that will allow us to address both of those, but certainly we have to address the climate challenge in a manner that's going to promote economic prosperity.
I will tell you that the regional energy and resource tables we announced today are about building the economies of the future on a province-by-province basis, where the opportunities in Quebec are going to be different from the opportunities in Alberta.
I will also tell you that from a skill-set perspective, many of the opportunities of tomorrow will require the same types of skill sets as those of today. A hydrogen plant or a biofuels plant will require the same kinds of workers who exist in oil refineries today.
So there is an optimistic economic future for this country.