Evidence of meeting #45 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Hannaford  Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Debbie Scharf  Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Systems Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Mollie Johnson  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Glenn Hargrove  Assistant Deputy Minister, Canadian Forest Service, Department of Natural Resources
Shirley Carruthers  Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Management and Services Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Angie Bruce  Assistant Deputy Minister, Nòkwewashk, Department of Natural Resources
Frank Des Rosiers  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy and Innovation Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Drew Leyburne  Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Efficiency and Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 45 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources. The committee is meeting today to hear from the Minister of Natural Resources and officials.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), we are considering supplementary estimates (B), 2022-23, including vote 1b under Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, vote 1b under the Canadian Energy Regulator, vote 1b under the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission and votes 1b, 5b and 10b under the Department of Natural Resources.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Now that we've started, screenshots and photos are not permitted.

For those joining online, when we get to officials and the minister, you'll need to unmute your mike when speaking. When you're not speaking, please mute it. If you want to raise your hand, please use the “raise hand” function. Interpretation is available, with floor, French or English as your choices. Finally, please address your comments through the chair.

Those are the formalities we needed to get through.

Just so that everybody knows, we have officials either in the room or online. Only one official has not yet done the technology check. We'll be keeping an eye open for when they join. We'll get to that when we switch out after the minister.

For the first hour, we have with us the Honourable Jonathan Wilkinson, Minister of Natural Resources.

Good morning, Minister. We'll give you the floor for a five-minute opening statement.

As always, I'll use my handy flash card system. Yellow means you have 30 seconds left. Red means your time is up, but don't stop mid-sentence.

When you're ready, Minister, I'll turn it over to you. I'll start the clock for your five-minute opening statement.

December 1st, 2022 / 11:05 a.m.

North Vancouver B.C.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson LiberalMinister of Natural Resources

Thank you, John.

Hello, everyone.

I am very pleased to be joining you today. I appreciate your invitation to talk about the investments this government is making to build a prosperous and clean future for the next generation, and to answer questions about the $315.9 million in expenditure requests contained in supplementary estimates (B), including $239.6 million for new funding or initiatives.

I am joining you today from the traditional, ancestral and unceded territories of the Squamish, Musqueam and Tsleil-Waututh nations.

Let me begin today by saying that I believe Canada is uniquely positioned to take advantage of the key growth areas that will be driven by the international transition to a clean future.

Around the world, financial markets are increasingly pricing climate risk into investment decisions. Smart money is flowing away from assets that are not compatible with a transition to a net-zero world and toward opportunities that are.

Just as any successful business must be capable of interpreting and reacting to changes in the business environment, countries must also be capable of thoughtful response and action if they are to sustain and enhance their level of prosperity. It is in this context that Canada can choose to be a leader in the global economic shift, or we can let it happen to us, with all the attendant consequences of being a late mover.

As the world moves toward a lower-carbon economy, a key question on which we must collectively focus is how to build on Canada's comparative advantages in a manner that will create jobs, economic opportunity and prosperity. My job, as I see it, is to work with folks across this country to determine how best to utilize the abundance of resources, technology and expertise that exist in this country, and pursue opportunities that will drive significant job creation and economic growth.

To remain competitive internationally, and to drive long-term economic growth, we need to think about economic opportunities at both sectoral and regional levels.

Opportunities from a sectoral perspective will come from new products that enable a low-carbon future, such as critical minerals, hydrogen, electric cars and buses, battery technology, renewable energy, low-carbon building products, small modular reactors and other clean technologies.

Regionally, each province has a relatively unique mix of its own natural resources. The economic opportunities available to them, and therefore the approaches to a clean energy transition, will be different across the country.

What we need is a plan based on comparative advantage, one that aligns the efforts and resources of all levels of government, as well as the private sector, and a plan that also respects the rights and interests of indigenous people. Such a plan must be thoughtful, collaborative and ambitious. It must create wealth and good jobs in every region of this country, while ensuring we achieve our ambitious and necessary climate goals.

I am working with the provinces and territories, as well as businesses and labour and indigenous partners, to establish regional energy and resource tables across the country, and to establish such a plan for each region of the country. Tables have now been set up with British Columbia, Newfoundland and Labrador, Manitoba, the Yukon, Northwest Territories, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Ontario. I look forward to soon establishing tables with Quebec, Saskatchewan, Nunavut and Alberta.

We are currently investing in the areas we know will be a part of Canada's clean energy future. Through the fall economic statement, we announced significant investments in our clean technology industries. Through investment tax credits in hydrogen and other clean technologies, we are maintaining competitiveness in the face of increasing global competition.

We also announced the creation of a sustainable jobs training centre to bring together employers, workers and institutions to help level up over 15,000 workers with the needed skills for building a prosperous low-carbon economy. This is in addition to investments to help create over 20,000 more union-based apprenticeships.

We are also investing directly in households. Recently, we announced new support for those who currently rely on home heating oil. The $250-million oil to heat pump affordability grant can often be stacked with the greener homes grant for up to $10,000 in direct support per family to transition away from heating oil and towards efficient, affordable and sustainable heat pumps. Heat pumps are a measure that reduce emissions and home heating bills, while doubling as a climate adaptation solution by providing air conditioning in increasingly hot summer months.

I could go on, but my time is almost up. I will conclude by saying that the measures included in the supplementary estimates (B) build on and enable many of these important initiatives. I welcome the opportunity to further discuss how my department is working across government to make life more affordable for Canadian families while fighting climate change, and building a truly sustainable economy that works for everyone.

Thank you very much for inviting me to join you today. I look forward to our conversation.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you, Minister. It's always a pleasure to have you here.

In our first round of questions, you'll have six minutes each.

First up is Mrs. Stubbs.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here, and thanks to your officials for being present at committee.

Since you just mentioned the heat pump announcement in the fall economic statement, I noticed there's almost $1.2 million in these estimates for the greener homes grant and the loan programs, which you referenced.

Are any of those dollars for the recently announced heat pump program?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

It is not included, but you can stack the new grants with the greener homes grants. You can take the $5,000 and stack it with $5,000 to do a broader renovation if you choose to do that.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

That would confirm, then, that it was a very recent and potentially back-of-the-napkin plan, and it makes sense why it won't be announced until the spring. It won't help any Canadians who are having trouble figuring out how to pay their heating bills, buy groceries and pay their mortgages.

There seem to be some major problems in the program, such as the concern that insurance companies might not cover it. Also, the overall cost to install a new system is between $10,000 and $20,000, and the sources will still require a backup.

Thanks for confirming that the program wasn't actually in previous estimates.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Is there a question in there? I'm happy to respond to the statements you made.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

No, thanks. I'm good with the statement.

I'd like to ask you about TMX. There's a line item in the estimates of about $6.5 million for funding for the Trans Mountain expansion project.

Given that the Deputy Prime Minister promised in February 2022 that no more tax dollars would go into TMX, could you explain what that dollar amount is in the estimates?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Sure.

I'm happy to have officials speak to it more fulsomely, but it relates to discharging our obligations to indigenous peoples with respect to accommodations along the pipeline. Specifically, it's the delivery of three of eight accommodation measures, which are the terrestrial studies initiative, the aquatic habitat restoration fund and the terrestrial cumulative effects initiative.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Thank you.

Are you able to give—

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

Mr. Chair, the sound quality for the minister is not great, and it is making things difficult for interpretation right now.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Mrs. Stubbs, I've stopped the clock. We'll do a quick test and check on the audio quality because we want everybody to be able to follow along.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Is this better?

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

On a point of order, there's no product placement, please, Minister. We don't want to see that you're supporting one coffee shop over another.

11:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

It's because of my time on the ethics committee.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Okay, I'm listening in on the French channel and we are getting interpretation, but that's me.

Minister, if you could you say a sentence, we'll see if it's coming through.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Sure. I am always happy to come before this committee, and I look forward to the various questions in the conversation we will have today.

Is that enough?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I've been asked if we can suspend for just a minute while we try to sort out this technical issue.

Folks, we're going to suspend for a minute and we'll be back in session as soon as we can get this technical issue figured out.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I'll get us back in session. We're not suspended anymore.

We'll turn it back to you, Mrs. Stubbs. You have three minutes and 10 seconds left in your time.

Minister, respond slowly to let us all process the wisdom you are imparting and we'll get through this session.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

All right. That sounds good.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Thanks, Chair. I was just trying to figure out where I left off.

Minister, I'm wondering if you could give a timeline or an update for Canadians on the progress of getting TMX into private sector ownership.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

I can certainly say a couple of things.

It is, as you know, run by an organization that reports to the Minister of Finance, not to me. Certainly, the progress on the construction continues to make good progress. The intention of the government, as we have said, is to transact to the private sector as we move towards project completion.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

The concern is that TMX was supposed to be operating in 2019. Of course, your government had frozen the application, extended the timeline and redone indigenous consultation. The court ruled your indigenous consultation was insufficient, which is a challenge that is not unique to your government, certainly. It's one that other governments have faced before.

You gave the green light and the private sector proponent was still willing to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to try to get it built. Your government failed to provide the legal and political certainty that was required for them to go ahead and do that, so you bought it. We're currently three years behind what would have been the private sector timeline for operations.

Given your comments about dollars and investments flowing away from projects that your government has targeted to phase out and minimize, do you think that's the problem? Has the government made TMX an asset that no one wants to buy?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

I don't think that at all. That's not at all true. Certainly, the indigenous consultation piece was important. Actually, the courts have helped to clarify, I think, the bar that needs to be set and achieved for projects moving forward. That will be of use to all future governments in that context.

We would all like to see the project come to fruition. As you know, the government bought the project due to the political uncertainty that was created in particular because of the position taken by the Government of British Columbia. We stepped up to ensure that this important piece of infrastructure is done. It is somewhat delayed, in part because of things like COVID and the floods that happened in British Columbia, but as you know, when we bought it, the CEO who ran it was doing so when it was a private entity, and it will be concluded soon—