Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Well, emissions have gone down for two years in a row as the economy grew, but we need to continue to follow the plan that has been laid out.

Canada has perhaps the most detailed climate plan that exists in the world, and it shows how we hit the 2030 target and how we put ourselves on a track to net zero by 2050. We need to continue to implement it. It's not good enough to say that you have a nice target. You have to actually implement it and have a strategy as to how you're going to do it.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I absolutely agree with you. Our problem is that we've missed every single target we've promised.

We are the only country in the G7 that continues to miss. Emissions grew 3% last year after the COVID drop. That is very concerning. Our environment commissioner, Jerry DeMarco, says that we are now the outlier in the G7, so it's not enough—I agree with you—to have nice targets. We have to meet them.

I want to switch tack in my final two minutes.

I was in Germany recently meeting with various officials about their energy crisis. They sent a very clear message to us. They said that if Canada can't supply LNG within two years, they're not interested in signing long-term contracts. They are interested in whether or not Canada has the potential to supply Germany's manufacturing sector with hydrogen.

Has your department looked into Canada's ability to supply hydrogen to Germany in the next two to three years?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

The answer is yes.

On the east coast, there is enormous work going on associated with building out wind, both onshore and offshore, for the purpose of producing hydrogen and shipping it to Germany. There's also significant work going on in western Canada with respect to the production of hydrogen from natural gas. There was a big investment in their products just a couple of weeks ago in one of the largest hydrogen facilities that has been built.

We have an agreement with Germany through which we're looking to start shipping hydrogen from the east coast by 2025. I totally agree with you. Germany is looking to accelerate the transition, and Canada wants to be part of that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's interesting, because they say the push in Europe is so strong now, according to the International Energy Agency, that we're going to hit peak oil in 2025, not 2030. The push to switch to hydrogen, largely through the German economy, changes everything.

Would you think it reasonable for Canada to reassess its modelling? The Canada Energy Regulator has said that we're going to continue to increase massive exports of oil over the next 10 to 15 years, but the International Energy Agency says we'll hit peak oil quicker and there will start to be a major switchover to other energy sources, particularly hydrogen.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I certainly agree they are looking to accelerate the shift towards hydrogen, although as someone who used to be in the hydrogen business, I don't think it's as simple as flipping a switch. It will be a transition that happens over time.

The Canada Energy Regulator was asked by me to do a scenario for 1.5°C. I asked them to work closely with the International Energy Agency, because that is the international body with the expertise in energy issues. You will see that coming forward over the course of the coming year.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

In my final seconds, I'll note the issue of the round tables. We're hearing from labour that in a just transition, they want to be at the tables. They don't want to be at a separate table.

Is the government committed to a tripartite approach to make sure labour is sitting at each of the regional round tables and is in a position to make decisions, not just be consulted?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

These tables are not federal. They are federal-provincial mechanisms to engage conversations about economic opportunity going forward and about the electricity grid and how to ensure we have a grid that can support the electrification of many things.

There will be differences among provinces and territories reflecting different provincial perspectives. One thing the federal government is insisting on is appropriate engagement with indigenous peoples and with labour and industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We need to stop there.

We'll now go into the second round. It will be two five-minute slots, two 2.5-minute slots and two five-minute slots. We'll finish at that point.

I'll ask people to stay within the allotted times for this round.

First up, for five minutes, we have Mr. Patzer.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming, Minister.

I'm going to start with a quick question. Can you let me know what definition of “rural” you use?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I'm sorry?

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

How do you define what a rural community is?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I think Statistics Canada is probably in a better position than me to answer, but there are obviously large urban centres and smaller cities, including many in your province, such as Yorkton and Melville. Then there are rural areas that are primarily agriculture-based.

If you want a specific definition, I think it's probably better to go to Statistics Canada.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Would you agree that a rural economy is a lot different from an urban economy?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I think a rural economy is going to be different from an urban economy in many respects, yes.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I'm just trying to gauge whether you understand the impact of rural communities and what they mean to the national economy.

I'm looking at this through the lens of a just transition, Minister. I think there's about $4.8 million in the supplementaries towards a just transition. It goes through the development agencies. I'm wondering what your department's plan is to administer the just transition.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Let me start by saying that I have some appreciation for the rural economy. I grew up in the same province you did and worked for the Premier of Saskatchewan, so I spent a lot of time in rural Saskatchewan and rural western Canada.

The just transition is an important piece. I met with the mayor and a number of folks from Coronach just a couple of weeks ago to talk about the issue around coal-fired power plants. It is extremely important that we not leave communities behind as we move through this energy transition, but the opportunities for all of us, whether urban or rural, will be enormous if we're smart and thoughtful and if we seize them.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Did you read the environment commissioner's report on the just transition and how it's going so far?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I have read the environment commissioner's report, yes.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

One thing that stood out to me was the portion that alluded to two years of nothing being done on the file because of COVID. I like to think the department can walk and chew gum at the same time, so I'm wondering about that.

These communities are not getting those two years added on the back end of the timeline. What's going to be done to make up for the two years that were lost?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I think you're talking primarily at this stage about coal-dependent communities. I actually did a round table with labour folks when I was in Regina just a few weeks ago. Certainly I agree with you. There's a lot of concern there.

Monies were set aside for a whole range of issues, including economic development. Those will continue through the next year or so.

I think a conversation needs to be had about how we're going to address this, because many of those coal-fired facilities and the coal mines don't shut down until 2030. I'm not in disagreement with you that a conversation needs to be had.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

As an aside, the carbon tax might force some of these places to shut down a lot more quickly because the costs of running them are going rampant.

The commissioner also concluded that “in the absence of a federal approach for a just transition”, the agencies did not adequately design programs or benefits to support the transition.

Just quickly, what's the new plan? Is there a concrete plan now or are you working on one? I'm kind of wondering where that's at.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

We are working on one very actively right now. We hope to bring forward what we call the sustainable jobs action plan or the just transition action plan sometime early in the new year.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay. I look forward to seeing that.

Your mandate letter says you're going to create economic opportunities for all of these communities. You alluded to Coronach. There's also Rockglen and Willow Bunch. They have economic modelling for what they want to do for their communities. There's been a lot of stonewalling in trying to get the funding out so they can get their new modelling physically going. There have been a lot of studies and consultations, but not a lot of actual work to give them the opportunity to start building this model.

Is this legislation going to allow these communities to get certainty so they can start as soon as possible?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

We're going to bring forward an updated plan early next year. Funding has flowed to many of those communities through PrairiesCan, which is the regional agency.

Some of them—like Coronach, which is very interested in coal gasification technology—are looking for engagement with the federal government, and my department is talking with them. However, the last time I was in Regina, I was told that they believe they've now found private sector sources of capital to move that forward.

We are engaged in that conversation. We're open to and interested in all economic opportunities that will—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time.

We'll move now to Mr. Chahal, who will have five minutes on the clock.