Natural Resources Committee on March 21st, 2023

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Actually, I'm happy that you mentioned the Darlington part of it, because that was a recent announcement, I believe, in the past few months, and you might be able to correct me if I have that wrong. At the same time, there was the announcement of a regional table that was created with the Province of Ontario. If I recall, nuclear was part of that regional table as a list of priorities.

How do regional tables play a role in forwarding those kinds of conversations?

[John Hannaford]

Yes, regional tables are important. As the minister mentioned, we are seeking to establish across the country with each of the jurisdictions a dialogue to establish areas where we have identified priorities where there is a particular regional advantage, both in terms of the domestic realities but also in terms of the comparative advantage internationally where we could think about trade opportunities. Each of those is going to be different in each of those jurisdictions by virtue of the circumstances of each of those jurisdictions, but our anticipation is that nuclear will be part of the conversation in a number of those areas, because it does have potential, we do have assets and there is real opportunity there.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

That's pretty much the end of my time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We'll move now to Mr. Simard, who will have two and a half minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Perhaps someone can answer a question I asked the minister a little earlier.

In my view, there is a principle which applies to every project, and that's social acceptability. I'm thinking in particular of a project in my riding, in my region, where GNL Québec had to pay for trying to convince the public that any repercussions on people would not be significant. To address those concerns, GNL itself had to pay for the various costs associated with that.

I always remember what the Deputy Prime Minister said, namely that there would be no additional spending of taxpayers' money on the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion. So I have a hard time understanding why you are asking for $811,000 in the supplementary estimates. That's taxpayers' money, isn't it?

[John Hannaford]

They're not for the construction of the TMX pipeline. They are to support accommodation measures to indigenous communities.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

That's why I gave a long preamble in which I indicated to you that for the same type of project, in this case, GNL Québec, the company had to pay for all of the assessments and mitigation measures, which are often euphemistically referred to as “social acceptability”.

In short, you're still asking for public money. As far as I'm concerned, I just want to hear you say that taxpayers' dollars are still going into the Trans Mountain project.

[John Hannaford]

These are specific accommodation measures that have been undertaken with the indigenous communities affected in the region. Governance is established to deal with these issues, and the specific item that's covered in supplementary estimates (C) is to address that.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I understand. Let's just say that, for regular people, public money is still being spent on the Trans Mountain pipeline.

I don't know if you're aware, but many Canadians are having problems with your Canada Greener Homes Grant. Apparently, there are delays of six months or longer, follow-ups for francophones written in English only, and it's impossible to reach an official at the program. I've personally never heard as many complaints from my colleagues—they know I sit on this committee—regarding any other program.

Even worse, someone from Lévis had to sue Natural Resources Canada because they got their money one year late.

Is this type of mismanagement par for the course at the Canada Greener Homes Grant?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry, but we are at the end of the time there. We won't be able to take more questions and keep going. If we get to another round, you may want to offer the chance for a response.

I'll now go to Mr. Angus for his two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

It's five minutes, I believe.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

It's two and a half, because we're continuing on.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

Mining is a rough business. I keep hearing on the radio how we're going to move up our timelines from 15 to 10 years. There are very few mines that get up faster than that, because these are complex ore bodies that have to be identified. Money has to be raised.

There was a very interesting cobalt mine they were looking at in my backyard, just up the road from me in the town of Cobalt where I live—and it stopped. I met one of the geologists, and I asked why they had stopped. It was because once pot became legal all of the investment money went to cannabis shops, and that was it for the cobalt production. That's the market.

What role can the Canadian government play in terms of equity stake? How would that work? Are you talking about giving junior mining companies funding tax credits? What are we going to get in return? What is an equity stake if we're talking about critical minerals?

[John Hannaford]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

The critical minerals strategy was underpinned by a $3.8-billion funding announcement, which was in part around exploration, in part around infrastructure and in part around research and development. Those funds are in the process of being unlocked right now. We are looking at the full value chain, as I mentioned earlier, with respect to these minerals, not only because of the availability of the minerals themselves but also the importance then of their application in the value chain.

I would say that the piece around the speed at which we can look at the assessment process and the regulatory process generally are things that, as the minister mentioned, have a couple of facets. One of them is work that's being done internally in the government right now to look at how we can be building efficiencies. That's being led by our colleagues at the Impact Assessment Agency.

The other piece is the regional tables process. The intention there is that, for those areas that we've identified as priorities, how can we be as focused and as efficient as we can be within the parameters of the rules we've established?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know I'm running out of time here, but we're hearing that the U.S. State Department is interested in investing. There's a huge nickel deposit outside of Timmins. How are we going to say.... We want to make sure that goes to Canadian critical minerals and doesn't go to U.S. military purposes or some other nation. How do we put the stake on resources? Do we have to buy into it and say that this is going to be part Canadian-owned? How do we make sure that the supply chain actually benefits the manufacturing that we want to start in Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry. With that, we are out of time on that round, with the same amount—slightly over—as Mr. Simard had, so maybe I need to park that one.

I have two more speakers in this round.

Next up is Mr. Patzer for five minutes.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you very much to the officials for sticking around. I really appreciate that.

There was one question I wanted to follow up on. It goes back to a report from the Auditor General's office. It was in regard to the just transition task force, where 10 commitments were made and only four of them were met. The four that were met were actually met through the regional development agencies, not even by the department.

One in particular...because the just transition is going to be all about workers but also about communities. I found it very telling that one of the recommendations at the end said this:

The Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency and Prairies Economic Development Canada delivered coal‑transition programs but could not demonstrate that all of the projects they funded supported a just transition for the affected communities.

Again, you guys are going to be the ones who are going to be working extensively on this, hopefully for the next seven years, and hopefully you've been working on it for many years prior to now as well. How do we make sure that we're focusing on communities when the Auditor General is telling us that, so far, we've missed the boat?

[John Hannaford]

I think the minister is saying that one of the critical pieces around the sustainable jobs plan and the work that the government is doing is to align that with the work we're also doing through the regional tables exercise. That is intended to describe essentially a regional economic strategy for each of the provinces and territories so that, as we think about issues like labour availability and labour development, we're doing it in the context of an economic plan that is both agreed upon and tested with the private sector, with labour movements and with indigenous communities so that it is relevant.

That is, as I say, the critical counterpiece to the sustainable jobs plan, which will include legislation in the fullness of time and a secretariat, but it is to be done within that context of a broader economic plan.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

The sustainable jobs plan, as it's now being called by the government, is basically right now a plan to make a plan in 2025. How are we going to make sure that there actually is a plan that's going to be implemented and that will start in 2025?

Again, these communities, they don't have long to wait. If there's no hope on the horizon for them, right away it's going to be completely demoralizing to thousands of people, not just in my riding but in Earl's riding and other ridings all across this country. This is devastating.

To the point I made to the minister, we lost two years because of COVID. The Auditor General's report also referenced that there were two years of nothing done on this file. We've lost time. How are you guys making up for that lost time? How are you going to make sure that these communities aren't devastated and wiped off the map?

[John Hannaford]

I think our expectation is that, as is evident in some of the conversations we are having, there are going to be huge opportunities across the country. We really are at a moment right now where Canada has assets that are of real importance. There is an opportunity for us to act on those in a way that should give enormous hope to people as they are thinking about the future of employment and the future of economic development generally, whether it is as a result of the critical minerals we have across the country or as a result of the deployment of hydrogen technologies and biofuels. A whole series of areas of activity will be in demand—

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

That's great. Critical minerals are important. That's a whole separate issue and story because in Coronach and Rockglen, critical minerals aren't necessarily where there's going to be the development there. What are you guys actively doing to identify what the next drivers of the economy are going to be? We're looking for specifics. You've already had a couple of years to build up into this, even with the two years lost to COVID.

How are you going to identify the sectors that are going to be driving the future of the economy for Coronach, Rockglen, Willow Bunch, Bengough and all these communities? It's easy to talk about Estevan and Weyburn. They're bigger communities and they have a few other things going on.

For towns of 400 or 500 people, when you remove the main driver of the economy outside of agriculture, which can't pick up the jobs that are going to be lost in these other sectors, how are you going to make sure you identify only the sectors that will work in those communities specifically? Those are the communities that are being transitioned.

[John Hannaford]

I really think the intention of these conversations we're having is to have place-based strategies. I've talked to labour movement leaders in Alberta, for instance, and that was precisely what they were asking for. It was not to have generalized....

I'm sorry. I've hit my time limit.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Feel free to finish your sentence but don't start a new one.

[John Hannaford]

I'm very obedient.

It's not to have abstract plans, but to think very specifically about what the economy of the future is going to look like and then think about what the job implications of that are.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Great. Thank you.

The final one in this round is Mr. Sorbara for five minutes.