Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 9th, 2022

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Okay, very quickly, I'm going to go to Susannah, only because as an indigenous Canadian myself and representing a large indigenous riding, I know that any transition will affect vulnerable communities more, and it will affect the indigenous communities. They are largely employed by the oil and gas sector. What are some of the recommendations we should be looking at as the Government of Canada to minimize the risks that will be faced by the most vulnerable?

[Susannah Pierce]

Recognizing the time, I think we need to involve them in the conversation quite clearly and quite directly. They need to be a part of any decisions we make on decarbonisation. In fact, they do have an opportunity to participate in some of the new projects we'll be looking forward to, including carbon capture and sequestration, some renewable energy projects we'll be looking at, cleaner fuels and renewable diesel. It all basically will happen on the land and from the land, so I think they're a part of this conversation and that there's an opportunity to make sure they also prosper as a result of this.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, all.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're going to now move over to Monsieur Simard, who has six minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I don't have a lot of speaking time, I would ask that you respond succinctly, Mr. McMillan and Mr. Goodman, with a yes or no if possible. In your opinion, is the oil and gas industry capable of capping its emissions without financial support from the government?

[Tristan Goodman]

Tim, would you like to go first?

[Tim McMillan]

Sure.

I think that as global demand is increasing, Canada should be playing a larger role. There are demands around the world by people improving their lives and coming out of—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. McMillan. I just want a yes or no answer. If you receive no financial support from the government, will you be able to cap your emissions?

[Tim McMillan]

I think we should be aspiring to play a larger role in global supply. That's inconsistent with government support, or non-support.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

You would make a good politician, Mr. McMillan.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

He's been in politics before.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Ha, ha!

Look, perhaps I can give you the answer. I believe it's no. An economic sector that relies on government funding is an unprofitable economic sector. To my mind, a low-emissions oil and gas industry is an unprofitable sector. The proof is in the pudding, the two carbon capture projects in Alberta cost $2.5 billion, if I'm not mistaken, and 57% of that came from the public purse of Alberta and Canada. We're hearing from a number of people that the strategies you're talking about are inadequate.

It's a bit of a mirage, this whole idea of having an oil and gas sector with a low carbon footprint. Do you agree with me on that?

[Tim McMillan]

I think that the largest reductions Canada has made were by putting more natural gas onto our electricity system. We should be aspiring to do that around the world.

[Tristan Goodman]

I would echo the comments. I would effectively say that we have many partnerships in Canada. Many industries rely on partnerships with various governments across multiple sectors. Providing strong policy is going to be important, and there are going to have to be considerations as you move forward on what partnerships are important. Some of those considerations may be financial and some may not.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Are you familiar with a pretty basic principle in the environmental sphere, that if you want to bring new low-carbon energy technologies to the forefront, you need to invest in them?

It's a fairly simple principle. Unfortunately, in Canada, I would say that year after year, of all the energy sectors, oil and gas gets the lion's share. I believe it was Mr. McMillan who said earlier that the oil companies pump $33 billion into the Canadian economy. If I told you that the federal government invests $24 billion a year in this industry, would you still feel that it's an economically viable industry for Canada?

[Tim McMillan]

The oil and gas sector is one of the largest contributors to the coffers of the Government of Canada as well as to provincial and municipal governments. We do that proudly.

I believe that, based on a five-year average, between $7 billion and $15 billion a year is contributed to governments across the country. We're proud to do it.

[Tristan Goodman]

I guess I would respond that there's no question that it's a major economic driver. In addition to that, the reality is that it is actually, as many governments are indicating, one of the key ways that you're going to be able to move through an energy transition in a successful manner.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I will give you a fairly simple example to show you just how much federal support the oil and gas sector gets. The pipeline will end up costing the federal government an estimated $17 billion. The federal government has announced the green recovery plan, which will also cost $17 billion. A single project that costs $17 billion. A whole stimulus package that costs $17 billion. When you look at the green recovery plan, surprise, surprise, it includes fossil fuel subsidies.

Unless you can show me yourself that you are capable of reducing your emissions, my impression is that the oil and gas sector is kind of living on the government's back and on the government's dime when it comes to reducing its carbon footprint. I will believe otherwise if you can show me that the sector is taking charge and investing to develop its carbon capture technologies. Otherwise, I remain a true skeptic.

[Tim McMillan]

Committee member, I appreciate your point of view. We have been working on and implementing technologies for years. We have a long track record of lowering greenhouse gas emissions on our production across the board: oil sands, conventional and offshore. That's just on our production. The effect we've had on the power sector, as I mentioned earlier, is the biggest reduction that Canada has overall, and has truly moved the needle in a way no other industry has been able to.

There's no silver bullet here. There's no single piece of technology that's going to get us there, but we're committed to continuing to do the work that we can and should do as technology drivers from industry's point of view.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

No other industry has done as much, and that's to be expected, because no one pollutes as much as you do. It's not rocket science.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're going to have to end this one. We're just a bit over time, equal to what the other two before you have gone over.

Now we'll go to Mr. Angus for his six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I thank all the witnesses for testifying today.

Mr. McMillan, what I hear from you is that you say no cap. Your solution to the environmental crisis is to increase production to serve a global need. Is that correct?

[Tim McMillan]

Whatever policy we put in place needs to be efficient and work with the other policies that Canada has put in place to lower emissions, and it has to be done in the context of global realities. Canada plays a unique role.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I had heard you say no cap. You're saying we could play a role. Are you saying we would increase production to meet that global role, or would the cap be on production now?

[Tim McMillan]

There are several ways to implement a cap. I think we would not want to limit Canada's ability to play a major role in global reductions, and our industry can have a role in that.