Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 9th, 2022

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[Tristan Goodman]

Thank you.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I'm certainly not trying to pit us against one another, because we're all in this together. We all want the same thing; we're just taking a slightly different route sometimes.

The last question is on something that Ms. Pierce said, and I don't have much time here.

You said that if we don't do it now, it's going to be harder and more complicated to do it later.

Mr. Goodman, Mr. McMillan, would you agree with that statement? Doesn't a cap fit into doing it now to avoid making it harder later?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're at the end of the time, but be really quick, please.

[Tim McMillan]

I'll go first very quickly. I certainly think it's easier to do now than later. We've yet to examine the cap, but we look forward to doing that and I hope some of the points we put forward are constructive in examining that.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Now we're going to go to Mr. Simard who has two and a half minutes please.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Goodman and Mr. McMillan, earlier this week, Professor Jaccard came in to tell us that no, the oil and gas industry would not be capable of reducing emissions without government support. Now, as I'm sure you know, the Minister of Environment has announced that fossil fuel subsidies will end by 2023. That leaves you with very little room to manoeuvre, in my view. You mentioned predictability, and I have a hard time seeing how you are going to reduce your industry's greenhouse gas emissions. Having said that, I will move on.

In closing, I'd like to dispel a myth, the one that claims gas is an alternative energy source to coal. I come from Saguenay—Lac‑Saint‑Jean, where the LNG Quebec project was rejected. The Bureau d'audiences publiques sur l'environnement, the BAPE, clearly stated that gas is not an alternative energy source, but it's becoming an additional energy source. That's how the market works, the bigger the supply in the energy sector, the lower the price gets.

I'd like to hear Ms. Brouillette speak to that.

[Caroline Brouillette]

Thank you very much for your question.

When you look at liquefied gas production and especially the life cycle of liquefied gas, you include the methane leaks, which happen a lot, and you realize that it's not really any better than coal. Quebec's public hearing agency, the BAPE, rejected the LNG Quebec project because of that. It said it wasn't true that the project would reduce global greenhouse gas emissions.

So, that does call into question a lot of what we've heard tonight.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Since I have some time left, perhaps I will let you respond, Mr. Goodman, on the issue of predictability.

How do you plan to deal with fossil fuel subsidies ending by 2023?

[Tim McMillan]

In some countries there are subsidies for oil and gas, but as far as Canada is concerned, we are net contributors to provinces, municipalities and the federal government.

There are some initiatives that the federal government is trying to initiate that are for all industries, carbon capture and storage being one of them. I know that cement, fertilizer, oil and gas and manufacturing are all looking at an economic model that would work for multiple industries.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We're going to go for our last two and a half minutes. I just realized that we're slightly past the time we had planned. I hope everybody will indulge us for the last two and a half minutes. I'll need less than a minute to wrap things up and we will have you on your way.

Mr. Angus, over to you for two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair, once again for your long-suffering patience in keeping this motley crew of ours all moving forward. I'm going to close now.

Mr. McMillan, I was reading your March 27, 2020, letter to the Minister of Natural Resources, which was carbon copied to pretty much everyone in cabinet. It was a pretty audacious wish list of regulations and exemptions and protections and obligations you wanted to be exempt from. One of the things that struck me most was your request not to have to report to the lobbying registry. Why?

[Tim McMillan]

Mr. Angus, obviously March 2020 was at the height of the COVID crisis. It was a time when all of Canadians were stopping going to their offices and trying to avoid working there.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know, yes.

[Tim McMillan]

We were putting forward to governments a model that we thought would enable us to continue to produce natural gas and oil—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, I get that but—

[Tim McMillan]

—for Canadian customers and get it shipped out. As far as the—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The issue here is that this is a law of the nation. This isn't a regulation; this is a law.

The law was put in to ensure accountability and prevent corruption. Yet you guys wanted to be able to go off the grid on this. I can see why: You clocked three contacts a day and 220 meetings. That's staggering.

I get that it was the first year of the pandemic, but this past year you had 17 meetings with the Minister of the Environment or his staff, 25 meetings with the Minister of Natural Resources or staff. In addition with Imperial Oil, you had 17 meetings; with Suncor, 25 meetings; with Exxon and Natural Resources Canada, 12 meetings. I'm counting about a meeting every three days through the year.

The reason we have the lobbying registry is so that we know how much access—the insider passes—you guys have. That's pretty extraordinary. Don't you think that with the fact that you could keep your oil production going, you could still respect the law of the country and report all of these massive numbers of meetings with key ministers?

[Tim McMillan]

Mr. Angus, just for clarity, again, I think it's important we recognize that what we were looking for was some flexibility on when we reported. This was a time where people stopped going to the office. The workers who would be submitting that from our side—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know, but it's not like deferring a parking ticket.

[Tim McMillan]

—but also receiving it from the government—were probably not in their offices. I would expect you would know that it was very difficult to get—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But you were the only guys who were asking for that. That's what concerns me. Of the industries, you were the only industry who did. You had a massive amount of access that I didn't see.... I mean, you guys weren't doing vaccines or PPE, but you had a meeting every three days. Yet, you were the only ones asking not to have to report it. I just find that surprising.

[Tim McMillan]

Obviously, the government was very keen to ensure that the energy supply would continue, as we were still at a time of year where that's very important to Canadians. We were looking at how we could do that safely, and with responsible parties.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

With that, folks, we're at the end of our time today.