Natural Resources Committee on May 30th, 2023

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Okay.

Canada as a country has always benefited from FDI, foreign direct investment. We've always benefited from inflows of companies and corporations investing literally hundreds of billions of dollars into our economy. We see it today, and in the last couple of weeks with Volkswagen's announcement to build a gigafactory, the first one in North America, in St. Thomas, Ontario. It's going to generate thousands of jobs and is really happy to be there. We see it across multiple sectors of our economy—some not but most yes. It's good to see, because foreign direct investment is important. It creates jobs, and I can understand that.

What are your total assets in Canada as defined on your balance sheet as of today or the most recent reporting or filing period?

[John Williams]

I'm not sure. I'd happily get that for you. I'm not sure I could pluck that out of thin air.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Are they available on SEDAR?

[John Williams]

Yes, you should be able to see them, because Resolute, obviously, was public. Domtar has been private for a while, but they'll be considerable.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Just for clarification, where are the majority of your assets concentrated in Canada?

[John Williams]

They'd be in Ontario and Quebec.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

My understanding of the ownership structure is.... There's been some concern—and I will use the word “concern”—about the opaqueness of the ownership structure. Is it an opaque ownership structure?

[John Williams]

There are a series of holding companies, most of which exist for tax efficiency, but they're not abnormal for an international business.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Who is your auditor?

[John Williams]

It's PricewaterhouseCoopers.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Have they signed off on your...?

[John Williams]

They have indeed, and they've signed off on the consolidated balance sheet of Domtar-Resolute.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Do these international holding companies trace back or go back to Indonesia?

[John Williams]

They go back to Jackson Wijaya.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Asia Pulp & Paper is a company that's been around for decades, if I'm not mistaken.

[John Williams]

It has indeed. It was founded decades ago.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

What is the concern being brought up, in your view?

[John Williams]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I think it's understandable. It's this: “Who is this owner and what is this owner's agenda?”

The owner is Jackson Wijaya, who is a third-generation member of the Wijaya family. His grandfather left China during the cultural revolution, as happened to many. I'd say he's of the Chinese diaspora, if you like, in Asia. I think there is a concern as to whether we have some agenda to divert the product we're selling into various markets—into that Chinese market. That is absolutely not the case.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

The products you're talking about are pulp and paper—

[John Williams]

It's not paper, no, because, quite frankly, the Chinese have an enormous paper market. They're a producer. They're actually an exporter of paper. Their paper is coming into Canada as we speak. We're competing with them to try to sell customers our paper.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Of course.

Just for reference, many years ago—probably over 30—I worked at a pulp and paper mill in Princeton, British Columbia. It was the old Repap Industries under George Petty, at the time. I spent a couple of summers there, so I saw the process and understand it. I also understand the massive consolidation that has occurred within the North American market and how many of the participants.... For example, the largest company in British Columbia at one time was MacMillan Bloedel. That's the home province I grew up in. Things have changed quite a bit.

I accept and welcome foreign direct investment into the Canadian economy, but there are real issues in this world we live in, and I think it's understandable that we want to know the ownership structure and how it works. The Wijaya family have been leading investors and holders of businesses for decades. That's not new, but I think there are some concerns that need to be answered, if I can be frank.

How many acres of timber would you own?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry. We're out of time.

We'll take a brief answer, and then we'll move on to our next speaker.

[John Williams]

It's a very small actual ownership—a few hundred thousand hectares.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Monsieur Simard, who will have two and a half minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Williams, I come from a place that has some experience with a complicated ownership structure. Alcan, the largest aluminum producer in North America, was sold to an Australian company, Rio Tinto. Alcan has become a drop in the mining bucket of a major corporation, which means that many people in my riding have the impression that decisions about aluminum are no longer made in Canada.

As a result, I'm not reassured by your ownership structure. Ownership structure is the key ingredient that allows workers and people in a region to see where their centre of influence will be. I do not want my region, Saguenay—Lac‑Saint‑Jean, to become a drop in Asia Pulp & Paper's mining bucket.

I know we can't ask you this question and that you'll answer to the best of your knowledge, but—the best solution would be for Mr. Wijaya to agree to come and testify before us. If he doesn't, then you will leave, and we, the elected representatives and media, will be left with the same concerns about who really owns Paper Excellence. Until this issue is resolved, we won't be able to move on and talk about your development plans. Once again, this is essential for us, because a lot of issues remain unclear. I'm just thinking of the workers' pension plan. I also spoke to you earlier about your investment plan.

How can we trust you if we don't really know who the owners of Paper Excellence are?