Natural Resources Committee on June 6th, 2023

[Shane Moffatt]

I think it's important that we don't underemphasize the influence that a company the size of Paper Excellence will have on these forests.

It's certainly true to say that there are provincial regimes that put in place certain requirements and standards, many of which are currently quite weak. There's the influence and ability of Paper Excellence to lobby at both the provincial and federal levels. They influence some of the legislation and policies that we see.

They have a huge impact on the ground. I think it was the Forest Products Association of Canada that provided the figure of 22 million hectares. I think that gives us a sense of the enormous influence that they're going to have over these forests, irrespective of the relative strength or otherwise of the provincial regimes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. We're out of time.

Now we'll go to Mr. Angus for his six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much for taking the time to stay.

There is no other industry in this country that touches as many people as forestry. The towns that rely on it across Canada are completely dependent on it.

I know some of my colleagues around the table don't think that it's that big a deal that 22 million hectares of Canadian forests were taken up by a single man whose family connections are tied to some very controversial international operations. He's the sole owner.

I personally think that a question of net benefit should have been asked and wasn't asked when the Domtar and Resolute takeovers were handled by the Wijaya family.

Mr. Moffatt, we were told by ISED, who didn't bother to do a net benefit test, that the company is based in the Netherlands. Does that seem credible to you?

[Shane Moffatt]

That does not reflect our findings of the totality of the ownership structure of Paper Excellence. No.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I was wondering whether or not ISED didn't bother to check, even though there have been multiple reports about the connections to Asia Pulp & Paper. ISED's guidance on filling out forms is very specific. It's about the ultimate controller's country of origin.

Why would, for example, Premier McNeil fly all the way to Shanghai to meet with the Wijayas, when government representatives told us that this was set up in the Netherlands? Do you believe that there's a good possibility that this WTO provision that they were talking about is to protect a company that is rooted at their headquarters in Shanghai?

[Shane Moffatt]

From what I've seen, that may very well be the case. I haven't seen anything to disprove that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Right.

We've also heard from my colleagues that as long they're here, it's okay, but we look at what happened in Pictou Landing. Boat Harbour lagoon is now the largest toxic site in Nova Scotia. That toxic effluent was being pumped right into the waters, and when the premier and Province of Nova Scotia attempted to get Paper Excellence—Northern Pulp—to clean up the mess, they turned around and shut the mill down, got rid of the workers and launched a $450-million lawsuit against Nova Scotia.

Would that seem to be part of the pattern that you've tracked of Asia Pulp & Paper's activities elsewhere, in other jurisdictions?

[Shane Moffatt]

That would be very consistent with what we've seen from both Sinar Mas and Asia Pulp & Paper in a number of jurisdictions. I think that's a really good example of the kinds of concerns we have around the accountability of Paper Excellence as it takes over forests across Canada.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I ask that question because we have been told by whistle-blowers from Asia Pulp & Paper that the reason Paper Excellence—which may be Asia Pulp & Paper in some form or another—is in Canada is a fibre grab. Its control of the mills is less important than its control of fibre to feed the big China machine.

When the mill was shut down in Pictou Landing, Northern Pulp—Paper Excellence—was still allowed to continue cutting, so where did that fibre go?

That fibre went to Woodland Pulp in Maine. Now, Woodland Pulp in Maine has recently been purchased by the International Grand Investment Corporation, which is Hong Kong-based, and the mill manager, at one point, flew over to Shanghai to meet with—guess who—the Wijayas.

The Halifax Examiner is telling us that the pulp that was coming from Nova Scotia is now going through the Woodland Pulp operations, which seems to be a front for Asia Pulp & Paper, and that pulp is being transported to China.

Would it be reasonable to say that we need to look at what kind of benefit there is to Canadians to have this company controlling so much market through so many murky shell companies and shifting our forest products to China?

[Shane Moffatt]

I don't know what could be worse. Is it that the government approved this deal, not knowing how deeply connected Paper Excellence is to APP and Sinar Mas, or is it that it knew and it approved it anyway?

This is because the long-term implications for the logging industry in terms of where the fibre is going to go.... Who is going to be controlling it? Will that be supporting good, local jobs, or will it all be shipped out to build jobs elsewhere? Those are fundamental questions that remain unanswered.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That is my concern, because I've seen three of our pulp and paper operations shut down, and people are desperate. If the company comes back and says, “We'll continue to cut and save some jobs”, there will be a push to make that happen, but if the company that is shutting those mills down is doing it so that it can continue to cut and ship to China, I have a problem with that.

I want to close on questioning you. I was contacted by a Canadian executive who told me that, when he had to meet with Asia Pulp & Paper, they told him he had to talk to Jackson Wijaya. Are we being taken for suckers here? Are Jackson Wijaya and the Wijaya family, Asia Pulp & Paper, Sinar Mas...? Are they in control of Paper Excellence? We have not done a review of it. Are they in control of 22 million hectors of forest?

Is Jackson Wijaya part of Asia Pulp & Paper as far you've been able to ascertain?

[Shane Moffatt]

What we have been able to determine is that Paper Excellence is directed by the Sinar Mas group, and Asia Pulp & Paper can be considered a sister company of Paper Excellence within the Sinar Mas family, and directed by Sinar Mas.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. We're out of time.

To our witnesses, thank you again for your flexibility. We really appreciate your being here.

Colleagues, we're going to suspend now. For those online, there's a separate log-in for the closed session, so log out of this session and then log back in.

We'll see everybody back in five minutes or less.

[Proceedings continue in camera]