Natural Resources Committee on June 13th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time.

Colleagues, that would normally take us to the end of the first round with the commissioner and his officials.

I have had a request from Mr. Morrice to give him, through unanimous consent, two and a half minutes for a round of questions.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. Morrice, I'll go to you for two and a half minutes.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, colleagues. I appreciate that.

Our country is literally burning. The need for urgent action on the climate crisis is now only more clear for so many more Canadians across the country.

My question is about lobbying from the oil and gas industry that slows down the pace of progress. Specifically, Commissioner DeMarco, in report 5 you note that not only did Environment and Climate Change Canada not know whether the greenhouse gas regulations that you looked at contributed to emission reductions, but the clean fuel regulations were three years behind schedule. In your words, that's “jeopardizing the pace of Canada's emissions reductions”, obviously.

We have a new round of regulations that have promised to be forthcoming on methane, clean electricity, and the oil and gas cap. I think it's pretty pertinent to understand whether we can move quickly and with the kind of stringent regulations that we need.

Last week, we learned that a Suncor executive helped write a climate plan of this government.

My question for you, Mr. DeMarco, is whether you've seen any evidence that involvement from the oil and gas industry led to the three-year delay in the clean fuel regulations.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Thank you for the question.

The reasons for the delay that the department told us related to COVID, capacity and so on. Obviously, the oil and gas industry was an important stakeholder in some of these regulations, so they were part of the consultation process.

I would suggest—if you're given permission by the committee—that you ask some of that question of the department, in terms of specifically whether they were a cause of delay, as opposed to simply participating in the public process leading up to the regulations being promulgated.

To your point, five years for a cornerstone piece of regulation, which, by the way, was only dealing with one of the three phases of fuels rather than all three.... They scaled down the scope of the regulation and then took more years to actually finish it.

I agree with you that if the government, the United Nations and the world are going to call this a global climate crisis, then we need to act like it. That means acting with dispatch.

Every time we work on reducing emissions more quickly, there's essentially a compound return for that because of the long time that greenhouse gas emissions stay in the atmosphere. The faster we act, the better and more return on investment we'll get. We'll stop more of the accumulation of these long-lasting gases in the atmosphere.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. That takes us to the end of that.

Colleagues, we're going to suspend briefly so we can switch out the panels.

I'd like to thank Mr. DeMarco, Ms. Marsolais and Ms. Leach for being here today.

With that, colleagues, we're suspended. We'll be back in just a minute.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're back in session.

I'd like to thank our officials in our second panel here from the Department of the Environment. We have some regular faces, so welcome back.

We have Marc D'Iorio, assistant deputy minister, science and technology branch; John Moffet, assistant deputy minister, environmental protection branch; Jacqueline Gonçalves, director general, science and risk assessment, science and technology branch; Derek Hermanutz, director general, strategic policy branch; Nicholas Winfield, director general, Canadian wildlife service. I believe joining us as well is Lindsay Pratt, director, pollutant inventories and reporting.

From the Department of Natural Resources, we have Anne-Hélène Mathey, executive director, economic analysis division, Canadian forest service and Glenn Hargrove, assistant deputy minister, Canadian forest service.

Thank you all for being here with us today.

I believe Mr. Moffet and Mr. Hargrove will each have a five-minute opening statement, so we'll go with Mr. Moffet first.

When you're ready, the floor is yours.

[John Moffet, Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My colleagues and I are happy to meet with you here today to discuss the commissioner's audit recommendations.

I'd like to start by acknowledging that the commissioner of environment and sustainable development plays an important accountability role for the government. Environment and Climate Change Canada appreciates the commissioner's three recommendations. We have agreed with the three recommendations and have developed action plans to address them.

Although Canada has recently made significant progress in implementing greenhouse gas regulations as well as the other measures in the 2022 emissions reduction plan, the 2016 pan-Canadian framework and the 2021 strengthening climate plan, as you discussed in the previous hour, achieving our 2030 target of 40% to 45% reductions from 2005 levels and reaching net zero by 2050 will require significant efforts to accelerate emissions reductions.

These goals are being supported by an all-of-government approach, which includes a wide range of programs and measures, as the commissioner described, from using federal procurement to transform markets to providing direct financial support to decarbonization projects, to giving the numerous investment tax credits announced in budget 2023.

For our part, Environment and Climate Change Canada is strengthening existing regulations and developing new regulations to drive additional reductions across the economy. We recently enhanced carbon pricing across Canada, for example, and brought the clean-fuel regulations into force.

We're now developing regulations focused on reducing emissions from electricity generation to move towards the goal of a net-zero electricity grid by 2035 and reducing methane and other greenhouse gas emissions from oil and gas production, from transportation and from landfills.

As we implement our current regulations and as we develop new ones, we will respond to the three recommendations from the commissioner.

In particular, we're committed to continuing to improve our ability to model the impacts of new measures and to monitor and report on the impacts of existing measures. We've committed to improving the use of sensitivity analysis in our modelling, as per the commissioner's first recommendation. Robust sensitivity analysis supports informed decisions by identifying key aspects of an issue that can have a significant influence on outcomes. Sensitivity analysis can also help avoid an unwarranted overreliance on modelling and issues with highly uncertain outcomes. It can also improve public communications.

We've also committed to continuing to engage with the three western provinces, B.C., Alberta and Saskatchewan, on the ongoing implementation of those provinces' methane regulations. Ensuring that their actions deliver expected results is a key feature of any equivalency agreement we enter into, and this information will also be important when the existing regulations expire and renewal of the equivalency agreement is discussed.

We've also committed to addressing the commissioner's third recommendation—to use the most recent measurement-based data to improve the accuracy of the oil and gas sector methane emissions data that we publish in the national emissions report. We made this commitment in our most recent NIR.

While my remarks have focused on the three specific recommendations made by the commissioner in their audit, my colleagues and I would be happy to respond to any questions you may have about these issues or about our overall regulatory agenda.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you, Mr. Moffet.

Now we'll go to Mr. Hargrove.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

[Glenn Hargrove, Assistant Deputy Minister, Canadian Forest Service, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the committee for the invitation to be here at this meeting, which is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I'd also like to thank the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development for this audit on forests and climate change.

I'll start by saying we accept all but one of the report's recommendations, on which we will continue to work closely with our colleagues at Environment and Climate Change Canada. The commissioner spoke to that one recommendation, and I'll be happy to speak to that through the question period if that is of interest.

Earlier this spring, Minister Wilkinson was in North Vancouver announcing an investment that will translate into more than 37 million new trees in B.C. These trees will revitalize fire-ravaged areas. The Province of B.C. estimated that this project alone will eliminate 2.1 million tonnes of carbon dioxide between now and 2050. That's similar to taking close to half a million vehicles off our roads.

Clearly, this is good news for our environment, but it's also good news for the economy. We expect it will generate about 800 good, sustainable jobs across B.C. in labs and nurseries and in new employment opportunities for surveyors, planners and others.

As the minister has said, planting two billion trees is a marathon, not a sprint. We've engaged nurseries across the country to identify ways the program could ramp up the seedling supply chain to align with our goals and keep our principles top of mind. These are to have the right partners to plant the right trees in the right place for the right reasons.

As the owners of Crown lands and the managers of public land, the provinces and territories' participation in this program is critical. Seven of them have signed agreements in principle, outlining the importance of biodiversity, habitat restoration, carbon sequestration, permanence of forest cover and monitoring. Of those, six have also inked agreements outlining their specific tree planting contributions, which will only accelerate our pace—and there's more to come.

We have signed or are negotiating agreements that will bring us 260 million trees. I can confidently say that we will surpass our goals for planting on federal land and in urban areas. Projects on private land and those directed by indigenous peoples have also made significant strides. In fact, one in five projects was indigenous-led in our first year of planting.

On forest carbon, we'll continue to partner with Environment and Climate Change Canada to produce world-class GHG estimates, using methodology supported by more than 100 peer-reviewed research papers. We continue our efforts to stay current with the latest advancements in this field. For instance, the 2023 budget, as part of its investment in forests and forest workers, included funding to improve our forest data and reporting. Our regular discussions with forestry experts and stakeholders mean we're aware of the best available science, data and best practices, as well as where we can improve. Our modelling tools will continue to evolve, thanks to scrutiny by experts and peer-review processes.

We're proud that our reporting methods align with internationally accepted practices, as the commissioner noted. This means we produce a big picture report that collectively reflects human impacts, such as harvesting, regeneration, fire suppression and conservation. This method of reporting meets the reporting guidelines of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and reflects guidance from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

To conclude, there is no solution to climate change without forests. Nature-based climate solutions are an integral part of the solution. The good news is that interest remains high in the two billion trees program, and project applications continue to arrive and we continue to work with stakeholders and partners.

Recently, we also completed important work collaborating with indigenous governments and organizations across Canada to co-develop the framework of an indigenous funding stream expected to launch this summer. By recognizing indigenous climate change leadership, we ensure that the end result reflects diverse indigenous priorities and cultures.

There's an old proverb that goes something like this: Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit. I realize that many people wish to see immediate results, but I'll say again that this process is a marathon and not a sprint. Every tree planted along the way to two billion trees provides benefits for Canadians for decades.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Excellent. Thank you.

I want to welcome Mr. Tony Baldinelli to our committee today.

We're going to go through one round of six minutes each.

First, I have Mr. Dreeshen.

Earl, we'll go over to you.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will share some time with Mr. Baldinelli.

Mr. Hargrove, has the limiting of the hours firefighters can be on the job affected their efforts to fight fires? You are, of course, associated with the Canadian forest service, and this is what we hear. Firefighters are being pulled off because of regulations that have been put forward. Is that true?

[Glenn Hargrove]

I would expect that the regulations you're talking about are provincial jurisdiction.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Okay. We'll get to that.

You indicated that Mr. Wilkinson made an announcement that B.C. was going to push for 37 million more trees. That would be on top of the 218 million B.C. already produces, so it's not a big deal.

I know you were listening to what was mentioned in the last round. I would submit that perhaps an alternative press release NRCan could have done back when it suggested two billion trees would have been on working closely with the provinces to assist them in increasing...to a stage of doubling the work they already do. Then they would have been the ones responsible for putting this particular natural resource on their land.

I understand it sounds pretty good when we talk about two billion trees, but it's already being done. If you can help as far as making sure we have the nurseries there to have the seedlings, that would be great, but I submit that spending a lot of time talking about how great the program is going to be.... Let's get the people out there to deal with it. The provinces have that ability, as well.

I wonder whether you could comment on the capabilities the provinces have to deal with this and how we could work together, rather than constantly saying, “Well, we have this two billion trees plan.”

[Glenn Hargrove]

We recognize that provinces and territories are critical partners in the program and have been working with them throughout. We have seven agreements in principle with provinces and six contribution agreements with provinces—

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Is that to add, then, to your two billion? I mean, they still do it anyway. Is that to add to the trees?

[Glenn Hargrove]

Two billion trees is actually about a 40% increase in the number of trees planted in Canada. The idea with the program is that these are incremental to trees that would normally be planted for regulatory requirements and those sorts of things. We're working closely with the provinces to ensure there is alignment on the goals of the program—around climate, how to tap restoration and those sorts of things—and that the trees are incremental to trees that are already being planted, in recognition of the provinces' and territories' role around the ownership and management of Crown land and tree planting.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thanks. Of course, as we heard earlier, the U of A is putting in a more diverse plan for climate resilience. I think that's helpful.

I'll give my time to Mr. Baldinelli.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and everyone, for allowing me to sit in.

The environment commissioner indicated the departments' difficulties in measuring and meeting the targets and promises the government has set, yet we continue to raise targets. We can't meet our current targets. You mentioned the net-zero electrical grid by 2035. How do we reconcile that with the fact that several provinces have said they're unable to meet 2035? Ontario's independent electricity system operator, in December, put out a report saying that to get a net-zero grid by 2050, it will be $400 billion in the province of Ontario alone. You're going to need six times the 14,000 workers who exist there.

How does the government work with the provinces to establish that? For example, in 2025, if Pickering is taken offline, that's 15% of the grid. Nuclear in Ontario is about 60% of the total province. If you take 15% off the grid, how does Ontario replace it? It's probably through natural gas. There has to be a way to work together, because there's no way, right now, under these goals, that I see a net-zero electrical grid by 2035.

[John Moffet]

I'm sorry. Do you have a question?

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

How can the government work with the provinces to achieve it?

[John Moffet]

Well, it—

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

How are you going to work with the provinces to do that?

[John Moffet]

The federal government, from the outset of its addressing the climate and biodiversity crisis, has acknowledged that these are areas of shared jurisdiction that require efforts by all Canadians and all levels of government.

The federal government has some jurisdiction over some of these issues. For example, we will be developing a clean electricity regulation. We've provided investment tax credits to enable provincial utilities and private sector electricity generators to take advantage of those in order to reduce the capital costs of investing in clean electricity. It will be up to provinces to make those decisions about how to allocate those costs.

The reality is, however, that, as the economy decarbonizes, all jurisdictions, including Ontario, are going to have to invest a lot of money in increasing electricity generation, regardless of whether that generation is clean or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time on this one.

We're going to Mr. Blois, who has six minutes.