Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2023

[Matthew Holmes]

Thank you.

The certainty piece is very important to our members in making and sustaining the large private sector investments that are required for the energy transformation. With a carbon price in place, contracts for differences are an important mechanism that can be considered.

Another one that we're talking about is that over half the TSX is made up of energy companies and energy investment. We need to be working with these players to transition fuel mixing, sustainable aviation fuel, blue hydrogen, green hydrogen. A whole host of different investments are required. We need to move those companies to diversify and work with them and encourage them.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus from the New Democratic Party for six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

This is a fascinating discussion, because I see right across the political spectrum the need for certainty and the need to move beyond aspirational.

These incredible tax credits, where are they? We need to get them happening now, particularly because our biggest competitor has moved so far ahead so quickly.

Ms. Bruske, I'm going to start with you, because you represent people whose jobs are on the line.

In the very first week of his administration, Biden signed an executive order to create a committee to start looking at energy-dependent areas and how they would be part of a transition. This was the focus from the get-go. He went to COP26 and he said they were going to create good-paying union jobs. This sent a real message that this was going to be about an economic transformation.

How important is it that we move quickly, clearly, with an all-of-government approach so that workers are not left behind?

[Bea Bruske]

Thank you for that question. Workers certainly need certainty, and they are very concerned about what their futures hold. They are concerned when they see that the IRA is moving the needle ahead so much further than where we are at and other economies also following that with investments, so workers are concerned that if there are not clear directions given shortly as to how their industry and their communities are going to be impacted, they will in fact be left behind, and those good family- and community-sustaining jobs will be at risk.

We need to be able to move quickly on these issues. Workers need to be at the table to have conversations with the employers and with governments about what that transition looks like. We need to find solutions to upskilling and to reskilling. Workers know their industries and they know their employers, and they're well positioned to be part of that conversation.

If we don't start having these conversations that include workers, the risk for us as well is that we're going to have a brain drain in Canada. Those highly skilled worker we're also going to need to rely on as we transition will be looking for other pastures, and we're going to be at risk of losing those folks.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I think for much of the 2000s the overall severe regional economic problems that Canada was having were somehow masked in some ways by the incredible boom that was happening in Fort Mac. I don't know how many people from my region were on those contract planes flying in and flying out, doing twelve days in and twelve days out, but those big oil and gas construction jobs seem to be gone. Your members working in the refineries and plants will tend to be there and they will have representation, yet people who have to fly back home to Miramichi or other rural parts of Canada are just not getting the call to come back.

How important is it that we have a plan for workers in that fly-in, fly-out economy, who are not going to get representation that your unions would provide? Also, how important is it that we have regional round tables to make sure that investments are sustainable so workers who have gone back to rural regions are going to have jobs?

[Bea Bruske]

Rural and northern communities are definitely very concerned about these issues, and workers in those communities, who have traditionally travelled for work, would like to stay in their home communities. We see that all the time. They would like to return to their home communities.

The regional tables and having the regional partners at the table, whether those are regional employers or regional governments, are going to be critically important to figuring out how investments can be utilized to actually create good community- and family-sustaining jobs. It cannot just be any job and it can't be a precarious job. It has to be a family- and community-sustaining job, so you need workers at the table. You need workers' input and workers' dedication and knowledge being brought to those conversations.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Holmes, I just want to ask you a couple of questions in this first round.

I used to be on the board of directors of our little local chamber of commerce. We have lots of small businesses. In the summers, business goes up. We came through the brutality of COVID and lost so much, but the summer after COVID, things were great. This past summer people didn't come, and I was trying to figure out why it was. Then someone said that it's the smoke and the fires, so people are afraid to travel.

I just read the KPMG report that says 60% of small businesses were “directly impacted”. A good percentage had disruptions to their supply chain. A staggering number talked about damage to their properties and the uncertainty.

Have you looked at what the climate crisis that we're facing is costing small and medium-sized businesses?

[Matthew Holmes]

Thank you, Mr. Angus, for the question. We have not, to my knowledge, costed that out.

I myself am not an economist. We do have a chief economist on staff, Dr. Stephen Tapp. It is an area that we're increasingly being called on by our membership to look at and consider the disruption to small businesses. It's also an issue that affects our trade corridors and major supply chains. If we think of floods in Nova Scotia and fires in British Columbia and across the country this year, or labour disruptions as well, there is an incredible acute bottleneck happening within our supply chain right now, and it affects all levels of business. It's quite concerning for us at the chamber.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We have to have an economy that is based on sustainable jobs, but also we need to be addressing this increasing pressure on our small businesses, because they can't survive. After COVID, we can't have a summer or two summers or three summers of people not coming and not travelling because they're afraid of being chased out by the smoke.

[Matthew Holmes]

Well, I think coming out of COVID, there was an incredible array of interventions and government supports for businesses, and we appreciated that. We were in regular dialogue with the government on those.

Coming out of it now, I think we need to look at what the root causes are of various elements of these disruptions. Some of those could be climate-related. Some of those will be financial. Some of those are sectors that are still living the reality of the pandemic and are still impacted, the high-service-based sectors like restaurants and tourism operators.

Rather than a blanket approach, what I would prefer to see is very targeted programming that addresses the needs of those small businesses that are most impacted.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

On a point of order, Chair, through you, if you wouldn't mind, maybe it would be helpful every once in a while to just encourage everyone to stay on the topic of this study.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Okay—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

That's just when questioning witnesses.

Anyway, that's it.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Ms. Stubbs.

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I don't know why I keep getting all these points of order from my Conservative colleagues. I don't bother asking them what to ask, so they have no business telling me what to ask.

I'll ask what I'm going to ask. If she doesn't like it, she can run against me in Timmins—James Bay.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I'm very happy where I am in Lakeland, but thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, colleagues.

I would ask everybody to focus on the study at hand and ask questions pertaining to the study at hand in the best way you think that approach should be taken.

We will now move to Mr. Patzer for five minutes.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Just quickly, to the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, could you clarify whether in your previous comments it was the Alberta TIER system that you said you preferred?

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

Yes. It's been in place, as you might know, for many years. I think industry supports broadly having carbon mechanisms. They are working very hard themselves, as you know, to reduce their emissions—

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Perfect. Thank you.

I want to follow up on another point. You mentioned something about energy security as well. When we look at what is happening around the world, is there a moral case to be made for Canadian LNG around the world?

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

There's a moral and environmental and local economic case to be made for LNG. It's been made probably a hundred different ways in the last two years. Again, there's reducing emissions from the burning of coal, which is very clear; increasing the economy in B.C., western Canada and perhaps also in Newfoundland and Quebec; obviously, with lots of indigenous ownership and participation in many of these LNG projects, it's certainly opening that up; and then, obviously, it's good for Canada's economy and productivity, since the GDP per capita has been declining.

Increasing LNG—as the United States has done, as Australia has done, as Qatar has done—as Asian companies increase their LNG import capacity and as European companies increase their LNG import capacity and make decades-long contracts with Middle Eastern countries, obviously, everyone would prefer if Canada could be their supplier.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Yes. It seems like the only one who doesn't think there's a business case is the Prime Minister of Canada, obviously. These other jurisdictions....

It's obviously reliable and it's affordable, but it's also clean, right? It's clean energy.

[Dr. Heather Exner-Pirot]

It's far more clean than coal. I think everyone on this committee would know that. The important thing also is that it emits almost no black carbon, whereas obviously coal does. From a pollution perspective and from a human health perspective, in Asia, where they are increasing emissions from coal, it would be a far preferable solution.

We have to stop looking at the perfect solutions and look at good solutions. Canadian LNG is a very good solution.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you very much.

With that, Chair, I am going to move the motion that I put on notice:

That, in light of multiple news outlets reporting that Qatar is housing the leadership of Hamas; and given the fact that Qatar is now the preferred choice to supply liquefied natural gas (LNG) to our G7 allies in Germany, France, and Japan; and given the fact that Qatar and Shell plc have signed a supply deal for the Netherlands, the committee recognize that there is not only a business case for Canadian LNG but a moral case as well; and that this committee report to the House its recommendation that the Liberal Government champion the export of Canadian LNG.

This is important because there was a CBC article that came out the other day highlighting this. We raised it here in committee last week. I raised it on the floor of the House of Commons in question period, and it was dismissed as being a conspiracy theory by the parliamentary secretary. The CBC article says:

On October 7, as Hamas gunmen rampaged across southern Israel, a group of middle-aged men in a luxury suite in Doha, Qatar gathered in front of a camera.

Hamas leaders...recorded themselves showing surprise about the attacks from the news on a large-screen television, and then kneeling to give thanks...[for what had happened there.]

On the one hand, they're trying to talk out of both sides of their mouth, but it doesn't change the point that Qatar is supplying the world with LNG while also housing the leadership team of Hamas.

I think it's important to show that we take this issue very seriously because this is an energy security issue, and Canada has the opportunity to play a role here. We have heard over and over that Canada has the capacity to be the global supplier for LNG, but the government has left multiple countries in the dark on this.

In fact, we had the German Chancellor come over to Canada asking for LNG, and that's the famous quote we got when the Prime Minister said that there was not a business case for it, despite the fact that Germany came specifically saying that Canada would be the best and most preferred option for LNG around the world.

After that, we had Japan come, and Japan was also asking for Canadian LNG. The Prime Minister once again declined that as well. Now we start to see how the world market is shaping up.

There are five countries, because this morning, Italy was another one to join the mix and sign a 27-year agreement with Qatar to supply their LNG. As of this morning, you have Italy. Over the weekend I think the Netherlands also signed a big agreement as well. The three that I just listed there are Japan, France—that was the fifth one that I didn't mention—and Germany.

Multiple countries came to Canada offering the business case for it. They were told that there was, in fact, not a business case, but now we're up to five countries around the world that have signed 27-year agreements with Qatar to supply them.

When you look at the future of it here, QatarEnergy will contribute 40% of all new LNG to the market by 2029. This is the same Qatar that.... I have an executive summary from a human rights report here. I'm going to read this:

Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: serious restrictions on free expression, including the existence of criminal libel laws; substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association, including overly restrictive laws on the organization, funding, or operation of nongovernmental organizations and civil society organizations; restrictions on migrant workers’ freedom of movement, access to justice, and vulnerability to abuses, including forced labor; inability of citizens to change their government peacefully in free and fair elections; serious and unreasonable restrictions on political participation, including a complete prohibition on political parties; lack of investigation and accountability for gender-based violence; existence of laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct; and prohibitions on independent trade unions.