Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 16th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're a minute over that one.

I'm going to jump to Mr. Angus.

Mr. Angus, I'll give you three and a half minutes because everybody except for the Conservatives went a minute over on this round.

I'll give the minute to Ms. Rempel Garner on hers.

Mr. Angus, it's over to you.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I'm such a shy person, and I'm so glad you're stepping up for my interests here.

Ms. Adler, I am really thrilled that you're here, because when we talk about these issues, we get the industry guys and we get people who have economic interests, but it's your planet. It's your future that we're gambling with. When I talk to my daughter, who is upper gen Z, there is a real anger, because they see that our generation is failing in not just a fundamental way but in a deeply existential way. This is about gambling with your future. It's a generational divide that we've never dealt with before.

I'd like to ask you about this. As year in, year out, government makes promises, and year in, year out, Canada fails in these promises, there has been no decrease at all and we're hurtling past 1.5°C and not even close to meeting it, what is the stress—I want to talk about it at a personal level—that it puts on your generation when you contemplate a future that is being so badly mishandled by our generation?

[Meredith Adler]

The stress on our generation is very palpable. I think many people in my age range are severely questioning if they will ever have children, for instance, and if that is a safe or wise decision given our potential climate future. That is something that breaks my heart, but it is a very real thing for us to have to consider. I think that's why we need this level of policy certainty.

Also, that's why young Canadians are really calling for more cohesion. They're not as interested in provincial infighting or other pieces like that. They really want to see a clear policy direction that allows us to actually plan our futures, because at this point, things are very up in the air. A lot of that has to do with what's the trajectory of our economy, but also with what's the trajectory of our climate and wanting to see Canada be a leader on what does it look like to establish a climate-safe future.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much for that.

I don't think the natural resources committee has ever discussed having children before. I'm glad you raised it, because as an older white guy, I was reluctant to raise it. I hear all the time from young people who tell me they are not willing to bring children into a world that is in such peril. The years are ticking down, literally, before us, yet we have people who come before our committee and talk about increasing oil production by a million barrels a day. Our national regulator is talking about it. They're promoting it.

How important is it that young people be at the table discussing what their future is going to be, so that we actually bring some common sense to this discussion?

[Meredith Adler]

It's crucial that we're leveraging youth engagement, because it is their future. These are also the people who are going to implement all the plans that are made.

I'm happy that I was invited here. I think this is the first time that Student Energy has been invited. There's so much more we can do. It's great to see the establishment of youth councils by many MPs as well as ministers. There is a lot that we can do to more constructively integrate the youth voice, especially the voices of indigenous young people, who are really looking to lean in on this conversation. Many of the things that the First Nations Major Projects Coalition talked about are the types of projects that they want to be leading in their communities as well.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Great. Thanks.

Now we're going to Ms. Rempel Garner.

You would normally have five minutes, but we got a bit away on the last round. I'll give you six minutes, but if you want to give your last minute to Ms. Goodridge because she didn't get hers, that's your choice.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

It's so complicated, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Yes. I'm trying to be fair here.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

It's an important topic.

I'll address some questions to Mr. McGowan.

Mr. McGowan, at present you're aware that the former Alberta government put in place a cap on emissions of 100 megatonnes. Do you think that this is sufficient and that the framework that was put in place under the former Alberta NDP government should be carried over into federal policy?

[Gil McGowan]

It's clear that the framework developed by the previous Alberta government forms the basis of the federal government's climate policy. We see that on carbon pricing, on output-based allocations, and now we're also seeing it with the emissions cap. As I said in my opening remarks, the emissions cap was not just welcomed but advocated for by the industry itself. It has provided incentives for oil companies to reduce per barrel emissions. That's been good for the environment, but it's also been good for them, because they've been able to continue to attract investment.

The reality is that the world is moving away from fossil fuels. It's not a question of if; it's when. That's going to have huge implications for demand. As demand declines, so will investment and employment—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

It's all about time, Mr. McGowan. I appreciate your answer.

I read your March 2019 12-point plan on a just transition. In one of the sections, you talk about reducing “carbon emissions, as much as possible, from each barrel of oil produced in Alberta so, we can continue to access markets with increasingly stringent emission standards.”

I was wondering, with that particular sentiment, is your organization advocating for an absolute cap on emissions, or more for a per barrel approach or decarbonization approach?

[Gil McGowan]

These are early days for the federal government. They've made a commitment to an emissions cap and they're starting conversations. We haven't taken a firm position on what we'd like to see from the federal government in terms of the cap, other than to say that we're okay with the idea.

Let's talk. Let's make sure that workers are involved in that conversation. Honestly, if workers aren't consulted, if there's silence about how something important like this might affect them, then the silence will be filled with anxiety and anger, and we already see how dangerous that can be.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I agree wholeheartedly. We're just trying to drive to recommendations here to inform that output.

Based on your knowledge of the existing emissions cap in Alberta that was put in place by the former NDP government, is there anything you would change?

[Gil McGowan]

Interestingly, that cap was never fully implemented. The regulations were never promulgated, so it's sort of a notional cap more than anything.

To be honest, the goal here is to do our part to address climate change and reduce emissions. The important thing is that the cap has to be clear and declining over time to give industry an opportunity to respond and correct.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

That's great. Thank you.

That's the point I was going to try to go to. I think if you look at the pathways project in Alberta, and you rightly talk about certainty for both industry and workers, I think the emissions cap framework that was articulated in the prior government is probably what a lot of the decision-making framework is being made around.

Are there any changes you would recommend, or would you just say that this is sufficient and let's promulgate this?

[Gil McGowan]

It's a start, but as I said, in order for it to be effective, it would have to be declining over time.

To your point about clarity, that's really important for decision-making for businesses and investors. As long as there's clarity, I think businesses will be able to adapt while at the same time addressing the goal of reducing emissions.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

There are a couple of areas in which there isn't clarity right now, and I am wondering if your organization could provide its position on them.

The first is whether or not the cap should apply to approved projects that have not yet started in the energy sector. What's your position on that?

[Gil McGowan]

We haven't discussed that particular question.

One thing I would say is that—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Would you try to speculate?

[Gil McGowan]

A big concern for us is refining. The Alberta cap does not apply to the refining industry. My guess is that the federal government will want to extend it to cover refining as well.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

On that point, with the time I have remaining, can you tell me whether your organization would support a recommendation that if the federal government is going to entertain a cap on the oil and gas sector then concurrently there should be caps placed on every other major emitting sector in the country so that we can have a more cohesive carbon emissions strategy?

[Gil McGowan]

The short answer is yes. I couldn't in good faith say anything else. Every industry has to do its part.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Mr. McGowan.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Now we're going to Ms. Lapointe, who will have five minutes.