Evidence of meeting #80 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was point.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Mr. Chair, I'm going to rise on a point of order to help out my colleague.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Out of friendship for Mr. Patzer, I can rise on a point of order to help him.
In his comments, he speaks at length about the environmental impact bills. I'd simply like to point out to him that one of Quebec's major liquefied natural gas projects was turned down because of an environmental assessment carried out by Quebec. If we were to review every single environmental assessment, I don't think that that would necessarily lead to all kinds of agreements on gas and oil projects.
It's clear that Quebec doesn't want any liquefied natural gas projects. If Mr. Patzer's goal is to give the provinces more sovereignty over environmental assessments, then I fully agree with him. But I don't think that's his intent.
So I'd like some clarification from him on that matter.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
Thank you, Mr. Simard, for the point of order.
I would just remind colleagues to ensure the arguments being made and presented on the subamendment currently at hand are relevant, and to tie the subamendment back to the amendment and the main motion.
Just to remind everybody who's listening keenly at home across the country, Mr. Sorbara has introduced a motion. From that motion, we had an amendment. We are on the subamendment that was presented by Mr. Falk.
Mr. Patzer, with that, I will turn the floor back to you.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you very much for that point of order, Mr. Simard.
I will be mindful of how I say this, because sovereignty can be used in a few different ways. I firmly believe the provinces should be allowed to develop their resources the way they see fit. Quebec has developed a lot of hydro power. They have an abundance of that power, which is fantastic. They've been able to utilize a resource they have because the province prioritized that. They've been successful as a province because of that, within Confederation. Manitoba is much the same with their hydro, and Ontario obviously has hydro. Ontario has been successful in developing nuclear power too.
The Impact Assessment Act, I suggest, should not be a barrier for a company in Quebec to develop LNG. As I understand it, Quebec has some of the largest reserves of natural gas in Canada. Heck, they could almost be part of the conversation around who the world leaders are in developing this valuable resource. I will concede that it's up to the provinces to decide whether they want to do that. As far as I know, I don't think Quebec at this point has an interest in doing that. That's their prerogative. In the interest of provincial autonomy, I disagree with their decision, but I support their right to make that decision. I think that's an important distinction to make. When provinces such as Alberta and Saskatchewan decide natural gas should be developed as a way to provide reliable, affordable and clean energy to their people, the federal government shouldn't be a barrier with its regulations to them being able to do that.
In particular, these mining projects in Timmins—James Bay are going to need a lot of power. Our grid needs to more than double in the next 10 years I think, or maybe by 2035. Our grid is going to have to more than double its capacity. To hamstring provinces with the Impact Assessment Act.... Who knows? Maybe Quebec will one day decide they're going to develop all that potential LNG in their province. If they do, it would be a shame if the federal government were the barrier that stood in their way. It stands to reason that, if Quebec wants to do that, they should be able to do that. I would support them wanting to do that. If they don't, they don't.
As I said, they have a lot of hydro power available to them, which is phenomenal. When you look at some of the potential for utilizing that hydro power for other means, boy, that's a good nation-building project in and of itself right there. I think there is some joint interest between Saskatchewan and Quebec and Alberta and Quebec to get some manufacturing. Raw goods and products that are harvested in the Prairies could be sent out east to Quebec or the Atlantic region, where there's existing infrastructure in place, to be refined or developed. That's a great idea.
One of the mines I was talking about in Timmins—James Bay is going to be developing 900 jobs during early operating years. Construction jobs last a certain period of time. Then they start the actual long-term jobs, the number of which is a bit lower. It looks as though we're levelling out at about 400 to 500 jobs down the line on that.
They applied, under the Impact Assessment Act, in March of this year. The timelines are going to be problematic for them. They're trying to figure this process out, and now all of a sudden the act that governs this is unconstitutional or largely unconstitutional. What does that do for their certainty when they've applied in March, and how is that going to work out for them? That means there are going to be more delays. That means more timelines aren't going to be favourable for the development of this project. The Canada Nickel Company has proposed the construction, operation, decommissioning and abandonment for this mine. It's an open-pit nickel-cobalt mine and on-site metal mill.
We're talking about the need for nickel-cobalt for electric vehicles. Electric vehicles are going to need a lot of these materials. It would be a shame if the Impact Assessment Act stood in the way of the expeditious development of this project. The Crawford nickel project would have a mine ore production capacity of 275,000 tonnes per day and a mill ore input capacity of 120,000 tonnes per day. This is a project that will operate for 43 years. That will be huge for the region, for jobs. That's how you keep communities, cities and towns viable. That is why the Impact Assessment Act is important.
We've heard from people, from a witness actually, that we would be lucky if that were to get from conception to operation—and I'm glad you're all sitting down—within 25 years. We have an EV mandate in this country. If it's going to take 25 years to get a project developed and producing to the point where things can be going, how are you going to hit that mandate? How are you going to hit that target? Where are you going to get the resources from?
That's the problem. Nobody is against EV vehicles. Give me a superior vehicle and I'll drive it. That's what I want. I just want a vehicle that will perform better. If my internal combustion engine vehicle is going to perform better, then I'm going to drive that. However, if a battery-powered vehicle performs better and it's more affordable without the government—the taxpayer—having to subsidize it to make it more affordable, I'm probably going to stick with what I have, to be honest.
We can see this project operating for 43 years. It's amazing how sometimes projects like this mine, which is in the heart of Timmins—James Bay, will go longer than what the prescribed timeline is. It says it would operate for about 43 years. There are mines in Flin Flon, for example, that were mining this resource and then all of a sudden it was discovered that they were right next to a deposit for something else. Once they exhausted the one resource, they switched to mining for other resources in the shame shafts, or maybe they had to make a new shaft. They were doing that and were able to develop new resources. They discovered that throughout the process. All of a sudden, you now have mines that have long exceeded their expected end-of-life date.
These are jobs and certainties for people for decades and decades to come. This Crawford project is accessible from provincial Highway 655. A 13.2-kilometre section of the highway will need to be realigned, as it passes across the pit envelope. Phase one development will include a processing capacity of 42,500 tonnes per day, which will be increased to 85,000 tonnes per day in phase two.
I'm going to read those job numbers again. There will be 900 jobs during the early operating years, levelling out at 700 to 800, with 400 to 500 jobs created during the construction phase. That is a significant project for the area. An MOU has been signed as well, which is important for the other folks and first nations in the area. That's important too. This is about wanting to participate and wanting self-determination as well. That's important to note.
One thing these projects also do is support our community. We have the jobs part, but I hope one day to drive through the riding of Timmins—James Bay, through some of these communities, to see the names of these companies on the community rinks and as sponsors of kids clubs. There is an oil company in my riding that recently sponsored a kids curling club. I think it was Kindersley. The kids curling program is free for these kids because this company sponsored the entire program. That's what oil and gas companies are actively doing. I would suspect that these companies operating in Timmins—James Bay and throughout all the communities there.... I'd be willing to bet that the names of these companies are all over that town and all over the community organizations.
This Crawford nickel-cobalt mine is supported by the Taykwa Tagamou Nation. There are other first nations in the area that are part of it as well. It is of utmost importance for them that these projects have the certainty and clarity to be built and get done. That's why we have the subamendment for Timmins—James Bay.
I don't have the number of first nations in the Timmins—James Bay riding in front of me. Charlie has mentioned the number once or twice in the past. I will bet there are others that would like to be partners on future projects as well, or maybe they are in the process of setting up companies to do this. There are indigenous-led businesses and corporations all across the country that are in development or already in existence and are actively contributing to mining projects, among other types of projects around the country.
There's a good-news article from Timmins—James Bay in Northern Ontario Business. This is about the MOU. It says, “Agreement outlines exploration, development steps along with opportunities for Matachewan and Mattagami First Nations.” The Canada Nickel Company and these first nations have signed the MOU “establishing a guideline for exploration and development operations at the company’s Crawford nickel-cobalt sulphide project near Timmins.”
The article goes on:
Announced on Dec. 14, [2020], the MOU signifies a commitment by the company to consult with the First Nations and establish a mutually beneficial relationship during all stages of project development.
The agreement also provides the communities with an opportunity to participate in the benefits of the Project through business opportunities, employment and training, financial compensation and consultation on environmental matters.
Mark Selby, Canada Nickel’s chair and CEO, said the company is committed to “responsible development” of the project.
This is his quote, per the article:
“From the very beginning, our approach has been to work with First Nations and local stakeholders as partners in order to create shared value through economic opportunities, while also being respectful and responsible stewards of the natural environment,” Selby said in the release.
“Canada Nickel acknowledges Matachewan and Mattagami First Nations in their commitment to protect and enhance the land and resource-based economy within their traditional territory.
“We welcome their constructive approach and their support of our efforts to move forward on the development, permitting and construction of the project.”
The articles goes on:
Located 40 kilometres north of Timmins, the Crawford Project is considered among the world’s 10 biggest nickel deposits, and, according to Selby, has the potential to become world-class in scope.
In October, the company was reporting Crawford's total measured and indicated resources at 657 million tonnes, grading 0.26 per cent nickel, with inferred resources of 646 million tonnes, grading 0.24 per cent nickel.
Jason Batise, executive director of the Wabun Tribal Council, welcomed the opportunity to establish a “strong and mutually beneficial” relationship with the company.
In his role with the regional chiefs organization – which represents five First Nations, including Matachewan and Mattagami – Batise has been integral to the development of the Wabun Method.
This structured negotiating process between mining companies and member First Nations outlines how the First Nations will participate in resource activity within their traditional territory.
“Mark is genuinely committed to responsible and sustainable development, and our community appreciates being engaged in the early planning stages of the project,” Mattagami First Nation Chief Chad Boissoneau said in the release.
Canada Nickel is expected to release a preliminary economic assessment of the Main Zone by year’s end, followed by a more detailed feasibility study...[in] 2021.
That article is from 2020 or maybe early 2021. I think that really outlines what they're doing for first nations. When you look at the timelines of things, the fact that the regulatory process is about three years later means it's only just beginning, as we have a largely unconstitutional Impact Assessment Act in place with no indication from the federal government that it will be remedied anytime soon.
It would be in the best interests, you would think, of this government to make that priority number one, especially for a government that's been breathless in their support of reconciliation and in supporting not only the self-autonomy of first nations, self-determination and economic reconciliation but also the local knowledge they bring. I was grateful for the article and how it spoke about them being part of the consultation process, because you can't ever go wrong with local knowledge, especially from those good folks.
That's where the government has a responsibility, I think, to set the tone for how this will go. We're still waiting. That speaks to the tone being set, in and of itself. Will this project and others like it get the certainty they need?
Mr. Chair, do you hear a buzzing sound? I hear a high-pitched buzzing sound. Are the interpreters hearing that noise? They're not. Okay.
Liberal
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Well, I gave you that one on a tee, didn't I? I have a lot of catching up to do with Mr. Lamoureux, speaking of extra emissions and hot air. He's not here, actually. That's not fair to him.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
While it's all very well to hear from my colleague that he has not yet achieved Mr. Lamoureux's capacity for hot air, he should get back to the subject at issue, because things are getting a little bit out of hand. At least he was waxing lyrical in his latest comments. Before that, we had Mr. Dreeshen, telling us that he hoped Canada would export its oil everywhere for peace. Then there was Mr. Falk explaining that he liked big engines and plastic straws for his milkshakes. It's lyrical, interesting, and keeps us awake.
So I think my colleague should make a special effort, because reading us a newspaper story just doesn't cut it. If he hears a sound, it's probably the interpreters falling asleep. Please give them something to think about. If my colleague could put a little more emotion or passion into his parliamentary obstruction, I think everyone would be very grateful to him.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
Thank you, Mr. Simard, for your point of order.
Mr. Patzer, I would remind you and other colleagues to ensure there is relevance in your interventions that relates back to the subamendment presented by Mr. Falk and ties into the amendment and motion we have on the floor. I'm not sure if you've concluded your remarks, but I want to turn the floor back over to you so you can finish up if you're near the end. Then other members will get an opportunity to have an intervention today.
I'll turn it back over to you.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I am doing the best I can to try to be respectful to the interpreters, because I could bring a little more fire and brimstone, but I like to keep things on a bit more of a calm, even keel. That's more my demeanor. I'll leave it to my friend and colleague from Battle River—Crowfoot to bring the gusto. There are other colleagues who can do that. That's not me. This is more my pace. I'm more of a laid-back guy. I know that might make it hard to sit and listen for this long, but I have my points to make and I will continue to make them.
On the point of relevance, the news article was from Timmins, actually. As far as relevance goes, it was from the riding that the subamendment we are debating today is about. I think I've done a pretty good job of staying on point the entire time, although we went here and there a bit on a few things.
I'm not sure what that noise is, but that's okay.
There are lots of other good mining projects in the region that are still going through the assessment process. For this other project, the initial capital cost was $972 million. They're putting a ton of money on the line for this project and they're looking for some certainty. They want certainty. They want to know that when they apply—actually, they did apply—the assessment is going to come to a rapid conclusion.
There's a time extension. There's been an extension to 2025 on the Springpole gold project. Something we've seen quite regularly from the government is extending deadlines on their end of things and taking as long as possible to complete the assessment. We have seen companies back out of projects. Teck famously did that after multiple delays. After they sank millions of dollars into the whole process, they just walked away from it. That doesn't send a very good signal to industry that this country is open for business. Unconstitutional acts don't send a signal to investors to come and invest in Timmins—James Bay. When we have an issue with an Impact Assessment Act that is unconstitutional, that's a problem.
There's another gold mine project in the region of Timmins—James Bay. We're talking of 400 to 600 operational jobs. If these projects can't get the certainty they need to proceed.... These are big projects that will be of the utmost importance to our country becoming the world leader it should be in the development of resources and the export of resources. We can and we should lead the world. We have that opportunity. We should take that advantage. We should use it to our advantage. We should take control of that.
Liberal
Liberal
John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
This is something that I perhaps should have done earlier in the day. If our colleague would like to conclude his comments, I would gladly move that we see the clock at 6:30. Then we could have a new speaker for the next meeting. I'm not sure if we can do that here, but it's a great way of moving along our speaking list and perhaps moving on.
I'm just throwing that out there.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
Thank you for the point of order, Mr. Aldag, and the encouragement and guidance you're providing to committee members.
I'll let the committee member think about what you've said.
Procedurally, I'll pass the floor back to Mr. Patzer.
Conservative
Liberal
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Now, if you'd come bringing some AAA grade beef or something like that, some steaks, maybe we would have a conversation.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Absolutely. I've been asking the chair to bring Alberta beef, because he's from Calgary, Alberta. I think committee members would appreciate that.
Chair, just quickly, I think it would be beneficial to know, if you would indulge me, what the speaking list is.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal George Chahal
Currently, Mr. Patzer, you have the floor. After that we have Mrs. Stubbs.
Conservative
