Natural Resources Committee on Jan. 29th, 2024

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm sorry, but it's really hard at this end of the table to hear what's happening because there's constant talk. If people could just—

[An hon. member]

That's not a point of order.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That is absolutely a point of order. People can go outside if they want to talk. I want to hear the questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Colleagues, I'll ask that while a member is speaking and has the floor, other members respect that individual's time to ask questions and let the minister to speak. If you would like to have a side conversation or you have a phone call, you can step outside to do that. Thank you.

Mr. Aldag, we'll go back to you. The floor is yours.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Minister, what I was saying is the memorandum of understanding that exists right now between the federal government and the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador identifies 16 bays as exclusive provincial jurisdiction. You touched on that in one of your responses to Mrs. Stubbs' questions. The legislation we have before us would allow the province to develop offshore wind farms as though.... Sorry, the province has the ability right now to develop wind farms as though they were on land. That's what I'm trying to say.

This legislation, Bill C-49, is needed to make offshore power production a reality. Premier Andrew Furey has said, “This crucial federal-provincial agreement puts us in the driver's seat and will allow us to reap the majority benefit from the endless possibilities of the new green economy”.

We've seen at this committee some of the stalling tactics employed by the opposition. We just saw them specifically on Bill C-50, the sustainable jobs act. I'm wondering if the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador expressed any concerns to you about the passing of this legislation—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

It was actually the Liberals—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Aldag, can you hold for a second? We have a—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

—who brought Bill C-49 to this committee and put it behind Bill C-50.

The claim Mr. Aldag just made is not true. It's the Liberals who delayed Bill C-49 themselves, just for clarity.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mrs. Stubbs, for that point of order.

Mr. Aldag, the floor is yours. Please go ahead and conclude.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Thank you.

As I was saying, given the stalling and delay tactics used by the official opposition on Bill C-50, the sustainable jobs act, I'm wondering if the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador has expressed concerns to you about passing this legislation in a timely manner. Secondly, what are the potential impacts of having this legislation delayed by the official opposition?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Yes, the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador and I have spoken about this. He is very keen to see this move forward, as is the Premier of Nova Scotia, to ensure the planning and investments that will be required on the part of companies like World Energy in Newfoundland and Labrador can proceed. They need to know what the regulatory structure looks like.

He is very keen on that. He is certainly pushing very hard. I suggest that folks from Newfoundland and Labrador might want to have a conversation with him. To be honest, I'd be quite happy if he came to present at the committee to tell you how anxious he is over the committee doing its job and getting this done.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Perhaps, Minister, you could also speak to the point about the—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Aldag, I'll ask you to hold a second, we have a point of order from Ms. Jones.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I have a point of information.

I'd like to clarify, Minister, that there is a motion before the committee to hold hearings in Newfoundland and Labrador and in Nova Scotia that has yet to be dealt with. Hopefully, we will have that opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you for the point of information. It is not a point of order, but thank you for clarifying that.

Mr. Aldag, it's back to you.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Thank you.

As I was saying, Minister, perhaps you could expand a bit. I think you touched on this in your opening comments and in other responses, but what are the potential impacts of having this legislation delayed? We talked a bit about impacts on investments. Are there other impacts we might see if we do not get this legislation through this committee, back to the House and onward sooner rather than later?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

There are impacts. There are impacts in terms of companies being able to plan. There are impacts in terms of investments they will hold off on. There are impacts in terms of being able to create the certainty required for us to engage in an agreement with Germany about the volumes of hydrogen we will be able to ship them.

The longer it takes us, the more likely it is that Qatar, the United States and other parts of the world are going to seize this opportunity. We are not the only ones, and we are falling behind if we do not act expeditiously. The delay, delay, delay we've seen in this committee over the past little while is putting at risk Canada's future economic prosperity.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I'm going to turn now to a question on consultation. It comes from my role as chair of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

I am quite curious about consultation, so could you tell us when consultations took place, what the feedback was from the nations that your ministry talked to, how strong indigenous support is for this project and how Bill C-49 can help advance reconciliation? It's a package of questions on reconciliation and consultation.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

There were a number of opportunities to engage in consultation with indigenous communities in both provinces. The first was through a call-out we did with this piece of legislation. There is the regional environmental assessment being conducted by Environment Canada, which will be a venue for engagement with indigenous communities. Also, project-specific environmental assessments, when those come forward, will provide a venue for engagement with indigenous communities.

Beyond just consultation, though, many indigenous communities in both provinces have been very supportive of the project activity. In fact, many of them are participants, from an equity perspective, in some of these projects because they see this as an enormous opportunity, from an economic perspective, for them to have long-term benefits that flow to their communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Minister.

We will now go to Monsieur Simard for two and a half minutes.

The floor is yours, sir.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm confused, Mr. Minister.

I looked at the hydrogen issue at length, and one of the preferred places to manufacture it is Quebec, because Quebec produces large volumes of hydroelectricity.

However, the Quebec government decided to abandon the export of hydrogen that could be produced from hydroelectricity because of a fairly simple principle that was explained to me, namely the rate of energy return, according to which too much energy would have to be invested to produce hydrogen. So the loss of electricity would be too great.

That's what I was told. I'm no scientific expert, but I can understand basic principles.

So I'm wondering whether, as part of the wind energy projects that are involved, a fairly large quantity of energy will need to be produced if we want to export hydrogen.

Wouldn't it be more logical, rational or reasonable to use that electricity for local consumption rather than to manufacture relatively small volumes of hydrogen that would certainly not meet Germany's industrial needs?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

In Quebec, projects related to the manufacture of hydrogen for local consumption are under way. An announcement was made about three weeks ago.

In addition, the Government of Quebec has decided that it doesn't have enough electricity, so we have to choose how to use it. Far more electricity than we need in this country can be produced by wind turbines in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador. Quebec's situation is different.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

In terms of the volumes of electricity produced, I don't think there's anything comparable to hydroelectricity in Quebec. I think a huge number of wind turbines will have to be built in order to obtain sufficient volumes to produce and export hydrogen, because there's still a loss in the process.

I want this to be clear. In the current version of Bill C‑49, is hydrogen production the only permitted use for electricity generation?

Will the province still have a major say?

Is the main objective to respect the agreement you signed with Germany some time ago?

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Give a quick response, please.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

No, the provinces and businesses have to decide how they want to use electricity. Of course, we can use electricity domestically, but there are cases where companies also produce electricity to manufacture and export hydrogen.