Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 1st, 2024

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

—says:

The significance of these amendments to the Atlantic Accord cannot be understated.

This will echo loudly now and be heard for years and years to come. Much like the original Atlantic Accord, we again take stewardship of our natural resources [and] the winds of change are upon us.... Today, we start towards a new frontier for future generations. This is a gigantic win for [Newfoundland and Labrador].

My good friend the member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame represented the Premier of Newfoundland as some kind of poor rube at a country fair. He said that you guys had hoodwinked him and pulled the wool over his eyes.

Could you give me the truth here? On this clean energy project and on jobs in Newfoundland and Labrador, are the Conservatives right? Did you take this poor guy out of Newfoundland and Labrador, walk him around the back and take his wallet, or is he speaking up about the jobs we need? I need an answer on this.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Andrew Furey is a trauma surgeon who was trained at Johns Hopkins University. I don't think I or anybody else—I think Ms. Jones could agree—can hoodwink Andrew Furey. He's listening to investors.

I have to plead with members of this committee. Not only are we providing unnecessary obstruction, but it's also in the things we say. To have the CEO of EverWind come out and say that he was really taken aback by offensive remarks and was misquoted around this committee.... This is somebody who was looking at spending millions of dollars in Nova Scotia and potentially in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Please, just let this money flow and let jobs be created in this incredibly important industry. The transition people talk about is happening because the money is going that way. When the money goes that way, jobs follow. Usually, smart politicians follow.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I want to raise that question, because my good friend from Cumberland—Colchester—who's been elected for, I don't know, two years—was pretty emphatic. He said everybody knows there's no financial case for hydrogen. That's why he's going to vote against jobs in Nova Scotia. I was looking up the numbers. It said $320 billion. I met Chancellor Scholz in Germany. He seems to think Canada has hydrogen potential.

Does the member for Cumberland—Colchester have that area of expertise? Again, it's about hoodwinking the poor Premier of Nova Scotia, who said he wants this. Is there any case for hydrogen, or is this some kind of “big woke” conspiracy we're dealing with here?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Angus, even more than the Chancellor of Germany, I would say to trust the people who are willing to put down the money—the billions. Follow investors. Follow the money. The money is leading to these resources. Who are we to get in the way so long as they are following the right regulatory framework we put in place to make sure we find a balance for the environment and all the other stuff that I think we can all agree on? There are nuances, but—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We have to. We scrap all the time. This is about jobs. This is about whether Canada has a place or not. The Conservatives are adamant. They are not going to let this thing pass.

What is it going to mean for investors if they are looking at Canada as a dead-end road, when Europe, China and the United States are putting in the money and Germany is looking for that hydrogen? Are we going to be able to stand up and deliver that product to Germany?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Look, let's step out of the way and let the market happen. Let investment flow. If they want to bring it here, who are we to get in the way? We have a regulatory structure that has worked for our offshore oil and gas from its inception to its maturity right now. It continues to prosper. I look at West White Rose and the gravity-based structure being built. It continues to happen. Investment continues to flow.

More money is now going to lowering emissions and building up renewables. What an amazing thing that is, Mr. Angus. I think you can agree, from your tenure in Parliament, that all the money is suddenly going that way. That's incredible. Other places are diversifying, including AIMCo in Edmonton.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Angus, for your questions.

Minister, thanks for your detailed responses.

We will now go to our next round of five minutes. We'll start with Mr. Small from the Conservative Party.

Mr. Small, the floor is yours.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the Honourable Minister O'Regan and the officials for coming to the important discussion and debate on this bill today.

Minister, I just heard you reference the investment flowing into our offshore. In 2015, bids for exploration parcels were over $1 billion. After eight years, that dropped to zero last year.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

That was following the introduction of Bill C-49.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Yes, exactly. Bill C-49 was introduced in May. After that, anyone building a bid stopped. They pulled the resources away. There were zero dollars flowing to our offshore for bidding up parcels for exploration. At the same time, in the Gulf of Mexico, bids were almost $400 million. Exploration companies were tripping over each other while they walked away from us.

Do you agree with industry stakeholders that the uncertainty introduced by the unconstitutional Bill C-69 and the amendments you propose through the Atlantic Accord might be a little responsible for that investment walking away from Newfoundland and Labrador?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Who are your industry stakeholders?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

The oil and gas companies that explore.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I know them.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

You know them, and you know they didn't put any bids in this year.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Small, are you making a correlation between a lack of investment in the oil and gas industry and proposed legislation that really, as I would argue, only extends the stability that the oil and gas industry has enjoyed over the past number of decades? Are you saying that? I don't see the relationship other than timing.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Minister O'Regan, I'll read you a little clause from your bill, from your amendments:

the Governor in Council may, for the purpose of the protection of the environment, make regulations prohibiting, in respect of any portion of the offshore area that is specified in those regulations and that is located in an area that is or, in the opinion of the Governor in Council, may be identified under an Act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the Province as an area for environmental or wildlife conservation or protection,

(a) the commencement or continuation of

(i) any work or activity relating to the exploration or drilling for or the production, conservation, processing or transportation of petroleum, or

(ii) an offshore renewable energy project;

Can you say, beyond reasonable doubt, that a clause like that would not give a tinge of uncertainty to investors who want to come to explore, or would they go somewhere else like the young fellow from Angola that was on the plane with you?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I think he was actually from Trinity and was going to Mongolia, but I hear your point.

Nothing can happen in the Atlantic Accord legislation without it being mirrored legislatively by the province of Newfoundland and Labrador to the letter. Nothing can happen to the industry without the province's approval. That has always been the way of the accord, and that is probably, singularly, its greatest achievement. It will continue to provide us that stability, and it will continue to provide us that flexibility.

I cannot speak to investors' decisions on oil and gas. I can tell you that oil and gas off our shores is certainly a capital-intensive endeavour. Anybody who has stared at Hebron or currently stares at West White Rose knows it is a lot of money. Gulf oil is much cheaper, but the one thing you cannot question is that the greater the stability and certainty you provide investors, the greater investment you will realize.

The more we disparage investors around this table and unnecessarily obstruct this legislation, the far greater the chances we're going to be looking at a lot more uncertainty than that.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

These investors want certainty. If you're an investor, you'd want certainty.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Indeed.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Let's say that was your own money you were going to put somewhere and there was a shadow of a doubt that you were wasting that money. If you could go to a friendlier jurisdiction and know that your investment was not in jeopardy and that the goalposts weren't going to be moved, where would you go?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

What is the alternative? Would we create an entirely new construct to attract investment in this burgeoning field, and would we have to take the time for it to gain a reputation among investors?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

The oil and gas industry of Newfoundland and Labrador is not something new. It has prospered under the intent of the original Atlantic Accord.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Small, we are proposing very new industries. We are saying to extend the same stability that was afforded to offshore oil to renewables so people know and understand that the rules will not change.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

It's not an issue with renewables. There's no problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Small and Minister O'Regan, for that.

We will now move to the next set of questions.

Mr. Sorbara, you have five minutes.