Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 1st, 2024

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will split my time with my colleague Darrell Samson, from the wonderful province of Nova Scotia, in about two and a half minutes.

Welcome, Minister. It's nice to have you here today with us.

First off, I read the release today. You're the chair of the ministerial working group on regulatory efficiency for clean growth projects. I do welcome that statement. There are a lot of good things the folks on that cabinet committee are doing to ensure that Canada is positioned to take care of, take advantage of and leverage our strengths in the clean growth future we are moving into.

Before turning it over to Mr. Samson, I have one question.

When you look at a portfolio or at energy sources and you are looking in that vein, you talk about diversity. You want to diversify your portfolio and your energy sources.

The way I think about offshore wind or offshore energy, depending on the term you want to use, is that it's able to diversify the energy sources that the wonderful provinces of Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia, in these two cases, can generate. They can provide extra energy and extra funds, drive investment and create wealth and jobs.

I think that's what we're talking about today, and that's why we have the support of the premiers of both of those beautiful provinces. I think that's where we're going. Is that really what this conversation on Bill C-49 is about?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It's about diversity. It's about money. It's about jobs. That's what the offshore has brought to us, and also the technical expertise that, thank goodness, in this instance is transferable to these new jobs. In other words, the same labour force that did one does the other. As I said, you stand there in Argentia, Newfoundland, and it's happening there right in front of you.

Workers are behind this and unions are behind this because this is about jobs and money. It has been a blessing to my province, but the world is changing. Investors change, things move and money moves, and you're seeing greater diversity in many energy portfolios. Again, in looking at the news today, we're seeing AIMCo in Edmonton taking $1 billion of their money and putting it towards “energy transition”, in their words, and global energy transition. I presume they're making investments around the world in these fields and in renewables. They're diversifying.

We continue to look at ways to diversify because that's what investors want. At one point, it was perhaps just the leaders in environmental groups and in governments, but now it's investors, and that is a tide that will be very difficult to turn for any one of us. It's one that we shouldn't be trying to turn anyway. It's one that we should embrace. I think this is such a pivotal moment. Having been Minister of Natural Resources and now, years later, standing before this committee, I think the level of investment and interest in the potential for this country is just massive.

We've embraced these industries before. We embraced oil and gas before, and look how good we got at it. Now we can take that same prowess, that same expertise and that same ability and put it towards something new, where investors in those same industries are starting to put their money. The opportunity is golden.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I agree.

With that, thank you, Minister.

I'll turn the remainder of my time over to MP Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Minister, for being here today with us. Also, thank you to your staff.

This is an extremely important topic for all Atlantic Canadians, and an extremely important topic for Newfoundlanders and Nova Scotians. I'd like to read a quote for you. During debate in the fall, in October, Premier Houston, the Conservative Premier of Nova Scotia, said, “ Bill C-49 is a necessary first step in unlocking our energy potential. There will be many [other] steps along the [way] but we are hopeful that Bill C-49 passes”. Less than an hour ago—so obviously he is very concerned about where we're going with this—Mr. Houston said, “We believe in the potential for green hydrogen and clean energy in our province. This will mean good-paying jobs for Nova Scotians and...for the world.”

Minister, could you share your comments on that? Why do you think Poilievre and his party are against creating great jobs for Nova Scotians and Atlantic Canadians? What is the issue?

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Samson, we have a point of order from Mr. Patzer.

Minister, I'll ask you to hold until we deal with this point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Patzer.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

The member opposite knows that is not true. Conservatives obviously support the creation of good jobs all across the country, especially in Newfoundland and Labrador, and however the provinces want to do that, we support it.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Patzer, for your engagement, but that's not a point of order relevant to a procedural issue—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

They voted against it in the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

I will ask Minister O'Regan to briefly respond to that question.

You have about 15 seconds.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

The great victory of the Atlantic Accord was that the federal government recognized that Newfoundland and Labrador should prosper from its offshore oil and gas, and Nova Scotia as well, in the same way that Alberta and Saskatchewan do because theirs is on land.

We're not just looking for the support of these premiers. They are very much in charge here. We can't do anything without them and them without us. We have to do it together, in concert. This is more than just support. This is us getting in the way of two premiers and two provinces intent on more money and jobs for these provinces. Think about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Minister.

We will move to our next round.

Monsieur Simard, you have two and a half minutes. Go ahead.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to pick up on the discussion we had earlier. I completely understand your desire to advocate for jobs in your province. That's certainly commendable. We all do it. I also want to emphasize that I respect the jurisdictions of each province. That's the problem with this bill. As I explained to you, the main issue is transition.

That said, I'd like to ask you a simple question: Do you agree that, in the not-too-distant future, we're going to have to get Canada's economy out of oil and gas? I'd like a short answer, please.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

No. I think oil and gas is going to be with us for some time. It's just a matter of whether or not we burn it. Whether it's plastics or health care supplies, this is a huge industry.

Oil and gas is going to be with us for quite some time. What we need to get rid of, and what we need to be laser focused on, are emissions.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Okay, that's interesting. So, if I understand you correctly, on the energy front, Canada will be stuck with fossil fuels for a long time to come.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

That is not what I said, Mr. Simard.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Well, then, here's my question: Do you believe that Canada will remain a country whose economy is based primarily on the oil and gas sector?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

What the world is asking us to do, what investors are asking us to do and what we need to do for the sake of the planet is cut emissions. We need to cut emissions whenever and wherever we can find them.

The good news is that the money is now doing that. It is extraordinary news because we need a massive amount of investment, not only in this country but around the world, in order to do that. Emissions are polluting our air and heating up our planet. We need to cut emissions.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. O'Regan, what you're saying sounds an awful lot like what we hear from big oil companies, which would have us believe that it is technologically possible to have low-carbon oil in the near future.

When I talk to experts, they all tell me that's a pipe dream. Money is being invested in carbon capture strategies, but it's a pipe dream. These resources are being wasted instead of being used to develop low-carbon energy. According to numerous analyses, we are one of the countries that invests the least in clean energy.

In my opinion, low-carbon oil is a bit like poutine during a diet. Quebeckers like poutine. But if you're on a diet, you don't eat poutine. No one is going to claim that there's such a thing as low-calorie poutine. That's stupid, and it doesn't work like that. It's the same with oil. There will never be low-carbon oil.

Having said that—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Simard, my apologies, but you're over time.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Okay. I will be back later to talk about my poutine recipe.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Minister, I want to give you the opportunity for a very quick response, please.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Simard, I understood. I want to repeat this to the committee: Let the market play out. The market is playing out. The cost for renewables, solar and wind is plummeting. You are seeing energy companies all over the world diversifying into these places because there is more money to be made.

Listen, I am not one to say that's a bad thing. That is a good thing because it will drive investment. This transition is happening because the market is fuelling it. That is what has happened just in the past few short years. If I can say anything to this committee, it's to please let the market do what it is doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Minister.

We will now go to Mr. Angus for two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Conservatives point out that investment dollars for oil and gas exploration are drying up, which is very much what we're seeing. The International Energy Agency is saying there's a major shift under way.

We have the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador saying they want to take advantage of what jobs can be created with alternative energy. The Conservatives have said he's not too bright and has been hoodwinked; he's had the wool pulled over his eyes. They said they're going to stop this.