Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 1st, 2024

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

It's 14.66%. The goal is 25 by 25 and then 30 by 30. Do we have a proposed map already for what 25 by 25 is going to look like? Does that exist?

[Kathy Graham]

Yes, it does. We published it in February 2023. There are 17 areas of interest we're working on with our partners. I'm happy to make that available to the member.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you.

When we look at the regulations of the act, with the way this is drafted with respect to allowing the minister on a project “that is or, in the opinion of the Governor in Council, may be identified under an Act”, we're looking at uncertainty for investors. That's the number one issue, and now it has been verified by the fact that there were zero bids.

Who advocated for that clause? Who asked for that clause to be on prohibitions and the right of the minister to cancel a project based on what may potentially be an area? Whose idea was that?

[Kathy Graham]

I can't speak to whose idea it was. What I would say is the amendments being proposed for the accord acts are generally meant to harmonize existing MPA laws with the accord act offshore areas to ensure the joint oil and gas management framework we currently have in place with Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador is genuinely fully respected.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Lixfeld, has anybody in industry come to the department and said this is something we need? Especially as it now applies to decisions related to offshore renewable energy, I just want to know if a private sector proponent has come to the department and said they want this regulation written in.

[Annette Tobin, Director, Offshore Management Division, Fuels Sector, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you for the question.

We've been working for quite some time on these accord act amendments, so I can speak to the policy rationale, who we heard from and what we're ultimately driving for in these proposed amendments.

It had been long recognized that there was a gap or lack of tools within the accord acts and within this space for both levels of government to use when it came to marine conservation. In other words, the ability for the accord ministers to prohibit activities in the accord areas for the purposes of marine conservation or to cancel a licence for the purposes of marine conservation just didn't exist. The accord acts were written at a time before marine conservation was a thing. These provisions are new tools. They're consistent with the new tools that were brought in under the Canada Petroleum Resources Act in 2018 and are really intended not to make the decision to establish MPAs across the country, but rather to provide the tool within the accord act for a decision to be taken around prohibition and cancellation.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I'm sorry. I have limited time. I don't mean to cut you off.

Do you know if any other jurisdictions around the world have that same ability afforded to a politician?

[Annette Tobin]

I don't know off the top, no. I'd have to come back to you.

It certainly wasn't seen as something unique that we were looking to do here. It was really in the spirit of having the decision-making within the accords themselves and not an absence of it.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

When we look at the fact that there were zero bids in 2023 after this bill was tabled, that sets the precedent for why people don't want to invest in Canada. I think it's easier for them to go.... We heard from one of my colleagues earlier that over $400 million in bids went to the Gulf of Mexico, for example.

Obviously we all care about the environment. We all obviously care about species at risk or wildlife out in nature, and we want to continue to see the protection of those species, but when we have antidevelopment zones in a lot of senses—if I could rebrand them as that for a second—I think that's a huge part of the problem. Companies are going to take their investments and go to other jurisdictions with things like that.

As far as this last point goes, proposed section 40.1 talks about the minister having to action “as soon as practicable after deciding to make the recommendation”, and then there's 60 days for a ministerial decision and an additional 30 days. Then it says “No time limit”. Who asked for no time limit to be given to the minister to decide whether or not they're going to proceed with the project?

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

I'll ask for a brief answer, as the time is up.

[Abigail Lixfeld, Senior Director, Renewable and Electrical Energy Division, Energy Systems Sector, Department of Natural Resources]

That specific clause applies only to the decision of whether or not to issue a call for bids. That is the only area to which that applies, and that is to enable the provincial and federal ministers to take the time they need to come to a joint decision on authorizing the regulator to start a call for bids process.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

We'll now move over to Ms. Lapointe for six minutes.

Ms. Lapointe, the floor is yours.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I understand that you engaged with indigenous groups and organizations on this legislation. We certainly expect to hear from indigenous communities over the course of this study.

Can you share with the committee the response of the indigenous groups you met with?

[Abigail Lixfeld]

In developing the legislation, we sought out many opportunities to engage indigenous communities across Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador and other Atlantic communities. There was not a lot of uptake of our offers to engage, but we had a number of meetings and conversations with communities through other avenues, such as the regional assessment of offshore wind, which is currently under way, and subsequent engagement activities with the regulators and through their bodies, such as the fisheries advisory committee in Nova Scotia and One Ocean in Newfoundland and Labrador.

There have been additional opportunities to engage. Once this new regime is in place and we are at the point of actually regulating activities throughout the entire land tenure project development construction phase, there will be opportunities to engage indigenous communities on specific projects.

Anecdotally, we've heard from a number of developers that are interested in developing offshore renewable energy projects in the accord areas. A number of them are already engaging with indigenous communities, coastal communities and others and are looking for opportunities to have indigenous communities join their projects as partners.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I also want to ask you about the engagement that has occurred with the fishing sector to date. What opportunities would there be for engagement with that sector in the future?

[Abigail Lixfeld]

Similarly, we have had a number of conversations with fisheries groups, such as the fisheries advisory council in Nova Scotia and One Ocean in Newfoundland and Labrador, specifically on the provisions of the bill. I've personally met with the fisheries advisory committee I think three times. Other members of my team have met with them a number of additional times. Likewise, we've met with One Ocean.

The regional assessments, as I mentioned, are meeting extensively with fisheries stakeholders about the development of offshore renewables into the future. Again, throughout the development of specific projects, there will be opportunities to consult with a wide variety of stakeholders and interested groups on the development of projects.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Nova Scotia has announced that they intend to launch a call for bids for up to five gigawatts of offshore wind. Are the amendments put forward in this legislation required in order for that to proceed?

[Abigail Lixfeld]

Yes, they are.

Nova Scotia is interested, as you said, in seeing their offshore industry expand into offshore renewables. They have set a very ambitious goal of leasing up to five gigawatts by 2030 to meet domestic electricity, hydrogen and other needs.

In order for them to build projects in the accord areas, they need Bill C-49 and these amendments to pass. The province does have a marine energy regime that they could use for projects located within provincial bays, but it would be very difficult for them to achieve a target of five gigawatts outside of the offshore.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Can you tell us what other initiatives the government is undertaking to support the offshore wind industry and hydrogen industry?

[Abigail Lixfeld]

We are certainly undertaking a fairly ambitious implementation plan in addition to the bill. In budget 2023, the federal government did provide resources to undertake some additional data collection and environmental monitoring studies, which we'll be launching in the accord areas in both Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador. There are also regional assessments under way, which are an opportunity to engage quite widely with a variety of stakeholders on the development of this future industry.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Quickly, the amendments provide the regulators with the authority to have a participant funding program. When will this program be in place? How much money will be provided? What opportunities to participate do you see there being for the public and indigenous groups?

[Annette Tobin]

Indeed, there is a proposed amendment for the ability of the boards and regulators to institute a participant funding program that they don't currently explicitly have. As to the implementation of that, the amount of money and how it will be disbursed are details that will follow, but we do know that it will provide the support needed to encourage and strengthen engagement and consultation with indigenous groups and other stakeholders.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Monsieur Simard for six minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Lixfeld, I'd like to understand how this works. If a developer bids on an offshore wind project, is that bid evaluated by the Department of Natural Resources or by the province?