Evidence of meeting #19 for Natural Resources in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Dermarkar  President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Pagé  Acting Vice President, Indigenous and Stakeholder Relations, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

I call this meeting to order.

I'll start, as we always do, by acknowledging that we are meeting on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

Welcome to meeting number 19 of the Standing Committee on Natural Resources.

I would like to remind members and witnesses that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Colleagues, before we dive in here, I have a minor matter. We're undertaking a new study, as you know, and we need a budget to do that. A proposed budget was circulated to you. This is a formality, but is it the will of the committee to adopt the budget?

11 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

I have a quick clarification. It's to do with this meeting as well. Is that correct?

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

That is correct.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

We're scheduled and have resources available from 11 o'clock to one o'clock. We are here to find the answers we're all searching for about the all-American takeover at Canadian Nuclear Laboratories. Will we be sitting for two hours today, then, sir?

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

That is what the clerk advertised.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Okay. You're saying that we have committee time until one o'clock to find answers, Terry. Is that correct?

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you, Mr. Tochor. You have made your point.

I asked about the budget. I see no objection, so the budget is passed.

Madam Clerk, I've signed the resources for a three-meeting study, if I'm not mistaken. That was the motion, so that's very good.

Moving on, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, December 4, 2025, the committee is commencing its study of the management of Canadian Nuclear Laboratories by U.S. companies.

I would like to welcome our witnesses.

From Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, we have Fred Dermarkar, president and chief executive officer, and Maude-Émilie Pagé, acting vice-president, indigenous and stakeholder relations. Also, from the Department of Natural Resources, we have Drew Leyburne, assistant deputy minister.

Thank you all for being here today. I believe Mr. Dermarkar will be the only one making opening remarks.

Mr. Dermarkar, you have the floor for five minutes or less. Please proceed.

Fred Dermarkar President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Thank you and good morning, Mr. Chair.

My name is Fred Dermarkar, and I'm the president and CEO of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, or AECL, a Canadian Crown corporation established in 1952. Here with me today is Maude-Émilie Pagé, the acting vice-president of indigenous and stakeholder relations.

AECL's mandate is to drive and foster the development of nuclear science and technology, to derive optimal benefit for Canada from intellectual property related to CANDU reactor technology and manage the Government of Canada's radioactive waste and decommissioning responsibilities.

The government started restructuring AECL in 2009. This led to the implementation of a government-owned, contractor-operated—or GOCO—model. Under this model, AECL owns the sites and the associated facilities, assets, intellectual property and waste liabilities, while a private sector organization, Canadian Nuclear Laboratories—or CNL—is responsible for the day-to-day operations of the sites.

Our sites span the country, from the Northwest Territories to our lab at Whiteshell in Manitoba; several sites in Ontario, including Port Hope and the Chalk River labs; the Gentilly-1 reactor in Bécancour, Quebec; and our cybersecurity facility in Fredericton, New Brunswick.

The implementation of the GOCO model in 2015 was premised on leveraging unique expertise from outside Canada, particularly the United States, to help us manage CNL. The concept was that the U.S. had extensive expertise owing to their vast experience in nuclear waste management and lab operations at the U.S. Department of Energy's 17 nuclear labs. AECL initially contracted with the Canadian National Energy Alliance to manage CNL for 10 years. This contract has just ended, and we have just signed a new contract with Nuclear Laboratory Partners of Canada—or NLPC—to manage CNL.

There are three important points I want to stress about our activities and operations.

First of all, AECL is entirely responsible. We own these sites, and we manage the contract and the contractor. We set directions and priorities, and we supervise performance. We oversee everything that our contractor does, and our foremost goal is to obtain value-added in Canada.

The second is that our parliamentary appropriations are spent right here in Canada. The contract with NLPC is a management and operating contract for our sites, all of which are located in Canada. All of the CNL workforce—more than 4,000 people—is employed here in Canada. The supply chain executing the work for CNL is very much Canadian.

While the annual spend on this contract may seem high, the vast majority of our expenses are right here in Canada. What we are buying is the expertise of the NLPC parent companies in managing complex nuclear research and decommissioning sites like ours. Two of the three companies that make up NLPC have long-established Canadian operations, and half of the management team they recruited is Canadian. Only the fee, which is based on good performance as assessed by AECL, goes to NLPC. That's a very small portion of the total spend.

The third and last point is that our procurement process was initiated in 2022, and it unfolded in a deliberate and thorough manner between then and 2025. We followed legislative requirements and our procurement policies. We had a pre-qualification phase where interested bidders were evaluated against mandatory criteria, including technical, financial, security and integrity. We then issued a request for proposals to qualified bidders with a rigorous and thorough evaluation against technical and financial criteria, and we had an external fairness monitor who concluded that the competition selection process was carried out in a fair, open and transparent manner.

I'm happy to answer questions.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Thank you, Mr. Dermarkar.

We will go to questions now. We are going to start with Mr. Tochor for six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

Just to confirm the structure, AECL oversees everything. In your words, you control everything in that contract—the wording and the details of that contract. It is for the management of the CNL, which falls underneath. You own all the sites and all the hardware—as you said—that goes along with it. We are going to bring in a GOCO, which is going to be above them, to manage the employees at CNL—all the Canadians who have had great breakthroughs, from the research on CANDU reactors to, more recently, the medical isotopes that all Canadians rely on from coast to coast.

On the medical isotopes side, I understand it's a profit-making generator for CNL, for the isotopes they produce mostly at Chalk River, which is wonderful. This contract that you said your department totally controls and manages, have you seen that contract yourself and read the contract fully?

11:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

In terms of the wording of the contract, I understand there was a group who oversaw it to make it fair and to make sure it was all done right. How many bidders bid on this?

11:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Fred Dermarkar

Altogether, it was a lengthy process. As I said, it started in 2022—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Yes, but how many bidders? It's a group of companies, but how many groups of companies?

11:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Fred Dermarkar

There were varying numbers at different points, but up to nine, at one point, were involved in the process.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

How many made it to the final selection round?

11:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Fred Dermarkar

The RFPs went to two bidders, and we got one bid at the end.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

At the end.... Who was the second-last bid that was rejected?

11:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Fred Dermarkar

We didn't reject the bid. The RFP went to two bidders who qualified.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Who was the second group that qualified?

11:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Fred Dermarkar

I'm going to ask Maude-Émilie Pagé who—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Just the name.... I have to understand who they are. Were they a Canadian-based owned company, yes or no?

11:10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Fred Dermarkar

The answer is no. What happened—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

They were all Americans.

The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid

Can we allow him to answer, please?