Official Languages Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2006

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Why constitutional limits?

[Jacques Pigeon]

Because the question whether an affiliate comes under the authority of the Parliament of Canada or not...

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Pardon me. The authority of the Parliament of Canada is to know whether or not there's an act. Does...

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

I have to interrupt you, since the five minutes allotted to you have elapsed.

I suggest a fourth and fifth round of three minutes each. After that, we'll take five minutes to discuss our trip in camera.

If everyone is in agreement, we'll begin. Messrs. D'Amours and Simard will share those three minutes.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ultimately, I'll be the only one asking a question.

Mr. Pigeon, further to what was said before, I'm going to give you an example. We'll try to determine the logic of this.

I live in Edmundston, New Brunswick. There's no air carrier back home. I need to go to my friend's place in Moncton to get a plane ticket. So I go to Moncton Airport, to the Air Canada counter, and I request a ticket to go to Ottawa. At that time, I'll be entitled to services in French in order to buy my ticket.

Air Canada Online has a system for buying plane tickets, among other things. If I can't buy my plane ticket because I don't understand English, and, in five years—technology advances quite quickly—Air Canada decides that citizens will no longer be entitled to buy plane tickets from a wholesaler, travel agency or at an airport, and the only way to buy one is to go through Air Canada Online, how can I, a Canadian citizen, use Air Canada? It's my right to be served in my language, and I won't even be able to buy my ticket in order to use this air service.

Earlier the minister talked to us about the future. Technology evolves so quickly that, if Air Canada made that decision, that would mean that no Francophone outside Quebec, no unilingual Francophone in this country, would be able to use the service because he wouldn't be able to understand the services of Air Canada Online. What would be the logic of that?

[Jacques Pigeon]

It seems to me that section 25, which I discussed in response to Mr. Godin's question, will have to be considered in each case, in the facts that you submit. Furthermore, it seems to me that, if that's the only way to buy a ticket, it's not a question... I don't what to speak hypothetically, but...

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Pigeon, with your permission, I'm going to go a little further on this matter.

I live in Edmundston, and I have to travel 450 kilometers to buy a ticket. If there's no travel agency at home, I have two options: Air Canada Online or the airport. I won't drive 450 kilometers hoping to buy a ticket so that I can travel, whereas the other solution available to me is Air Canada Online.

How can you use the air service if you're unable to buy a ticket in your language? Why isn't it included directly because this undermines the ability of Francophone citizens to buy a ticket.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Pardon me, Mr. D'Amours, your three minutes are up. You'll have to wait for your answer.

I ask Mr. Lemieux to ask the next question.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much.

I like your approach. Air Canada was restructured. You identified the specific affiliates under federal responsibility, and those affiliates will have to comply with the Official Languages Act.

Furthermore, if there is another restructuring, you're going to put a mechanism in place to review the new structures, the new affiliates and to put in place obligations, if that's necessary.

We also talked about obligations. Everyone has his own stories, and it's difficult to include a remedy for each in the legislation.

There are also complaints. They're significant because someone took the time and made the effort to file a complaint. The minister talked about complaints. I'd like to know what the departmental representatives think about complaints and what's going on with respect to Bill C-29.

[Brigita Gravitis-Beck, Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport]

As the minister said, the rate of complaints relative to the total number of passengers who use Air Canada's services is very low. I understand that it's hard to say whether that includes all complaints that exist or can exist.

However, there's now a mechanism in the policy, legislation and regulations that the Commissioner can use as a lightning rod for considering complaints. So we're only proposing a change to the current process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you, Mr. Lemieux.

Mr. Carrier, over to you.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Pigeon.

I'd like to go back to the question that I put to the minister earlier on the extension of services in French to all airlines. That would be fairer for the public as a whole. Right now, we're only talking about a single company.

The answer I got earlier was political and a bit soft. Technically, or legally, could the Government of Canada extend the obligation to provide services in both official languages across Canada to all airlines under federal charter?

[Jacques Pigeon]

It's impossible for me to give the committee a legal opinion. My role is to give opinions to the Government of Canada. That said, you raise a question of constitutional limits. From a constitutional standpoint, the airlines generally come under the authority of the Government of Canada. In the context of that authority, it may impose obligations on affiliates in a more general manner, if it sees fit. That's a question of orientation and politics.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

So that would be possible, if there were a political will to do so.

[Jacques Pigeon]

That's a political question.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Earlier you referred to certain affiliates of ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. that are not under federal authority, that you put aside.

[Jacques Pigeon]

Even if the government wanted, it couldn't do so legally, once outside the constitutional limits of the Government of Canada's authority.

You want to know whether it would be possible within those limits. The answer is yes.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

The bill requires ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. to have its head office in the greater Montreal area. According to the definition of head office in the bill, could that head office be an empty shell? Is there a legal definition of head office?

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Please be brief, Mr. Pigeon.

[Jacques Pigeon]

The head office is the body corporate, the main office of the entity that is ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. That company, as you know, Mr. Carrier, does not operate an airline undertaking as such. It is a holding company that holds the shares and other interests that it has in all the affiliates we're discussing this morning. I don't know the exact size of that company, but it's main office, under the provisions of this bill, would have to be established in the greater Montreal area.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you, Mr. Pigeon.

Mr. Godin, you have the final question.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pigeon, I don't want to exaggerate, but that means that the building could be in Montreal and that a line service could come from Toronto.

[Jacques Pigeon]

The legal requirement is that the head office of the body corporate, of the corporation, of the company that is called ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. be in Montreal. There's already a legal requirement for Air Canada itself. The bill does not remove it. Air Canada, as an affiliate, must have its head office in Montreal.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Could you tell me the relation between the complaints that have been filed and the act? Will complaints be used as a basis for enforcing the act, without regard to the number of persons involved?

Why has the Department of Transport announced...

You've done exactly what Air Canada did. I remember that, when Mr. Milton came to testify before the committee, he had statistics on complaints. That's not what's referred to in the bill. The bill states that there are two official languages in Canada and that the Air Canada Act should reflect that fact. That has nothing to do with complaints.

Why is your department still talking to us about complaints? Does that mean that, if there aren't any complaints, it's not necessary to comply with the act?

[Brigita Gravitis-Beck]

I believe the minister tried to answer that. In the proposed bill, we're trying to do everything possible within the area of federal jurisdiction to maintain the obligations that existed before the restructuring. That's our objective with this bill.