Evidence of meeting #24 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was anglophone.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

James Carter  Coordinator, Community Health and Social Services Network
Michael Van Lierop  President, Townshippers' Association
Rachel Garber  Executive Director, Townshippers' Association
Jonathan Rittenhouse  Vice-Principal, Bishop's University
Robert Donnely  President, Voice of English-Speaking Québec
Peter Riordon  Treasurer, Quebec Community Groups Network

10:25 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

I would like to thank you very much for appearing before us today.

I would like to thank you a million times for being here with us today. As I said a few minutes ago, we are pleased we are here in Sherbrooke and not in west Montreal--here with you in the field. That's what it is all about, to go across the country and get to areas to talk to people.

I'm sure the things you have told us will be helpful to us as we prepare our report for the House of Commons.

I will adjourn for five minutes. We'll start the next session in five minutes.

10:44 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

I would like to welcome you all to the second part of this morning's meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

This committee was established about 25 years ago, and this is the first time we are going across the country to meet people directly in the field, talk to people, and give them the opportunity to present us with a brief and explain their challenges. At the same time, we'll be looking at how the 2003 action plan is working. If you have comments on whether you feel it's working or not, we want to hear from you.

We started in Newfoundland and were in New Brunswick yesterday. We're here in Sherbrooke today. We'll be in Toronto tomorrow and in Sudbury on Friday. The trip will continue in January, when we will go to the west part of the country. After that we will write a report to the House of Commons.

I won't take any more of your time on this. I will open it for your comments. I'll give you ten minutes each for your comments, and then we'll go around the table with a five-minute question and answer session.

Mr. Robert Donnely.

10:45 a.m.

Robert Donnely President, Voice of English-Speaking Québec

Good morning.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Robert Donnely.

I'm president of the Voice of English-Speaking Québec, which is based in Quebec City.

This morning you had some organizations presenting some ideas. In the second half this morning you're going to get a presentation from me, representing one of the 25 organizations within the QCGN, the Quebec Community Groups Network.

I'm also a member of the executive of the QCGN, and when I'm done you'll be hearing from Mr. Riordon. He's the treasurer and will be speaking on behalf of the QCGN. So you're going to hear from one of the organizations, and following that you'll hear from the umbrella group, which is the QCGN. Mr. Riordon will have some interesting things to say about budgets and support for the communities.

I think I should come to Sherbrooke more often. I didn't know that highway 55 was finished and that it had four, sometimes five, lanes. It is very impressive.

The Voice from English-Speaking Quebec, the VEQ, is an association with 1,100 members from the Quebec community. This morning, the representative from Bishop's University said that he was part of the main English-language institution outside Montreal. The VEQ may not be as large an organization, we are one of the most dynamic. I will try to explain why.

In a regional community of some 700,000 inhabitants, 1,100 members is not a very significant percentage.

I didn't know what type of consultation process that's happening today. Perhaps I should have brought more documents with me, rather than just two photocopied pages, but the ideas will come nevertheless.

I will start by explaining what the VEQ is and talk about the Vitality Logic Model concept. I will conclude by making a few comments about the VEQ as a regional association, our objectives and our projects over the next three years.

I will read the first three paragraphs of our paper in English to tell you a little about what we do. The French version of the paper is very similar to the one in English.

VEQ is an autonomous, non-profit organization dedicated to the preservation and promotion of a dynamic English-speaking community in the greater Quebec City and Chaudière–Appalaches regions. Anybody who is interested in having that healthy community is obviously welcome in VEQ. VEQ believes in an all-inclusive form of community building that includes individuals, citizen groups, and structured institutions, which are all considered to play an important part in the building of a strong, dynamic local social fabric

As a result of its policy of inclusiveness, VEQ has seen its network of contacts grow steadily since 1982. We will have our 25th anniversary celebrations of the year the organization was founded next spring. Currently, VEQ maintains active partnerships with approximately 60 community groups and has a membership that is now around 1,100. VEQ's internal administration structure represents a cross-section of local anglophone and even francophone community members.

The organization is overseen by a board of directors that is made up of 21 volunteers. The board is comprised of individuals who are active in the local English-speaking community. Currently representatives from the English school board, the business community, churches, and health and social services serve on the VEQ board.

Day-to-day operations are managed by VEQ's executive director, with the help of a contingent of subcommittees and project coordinators. The VEQ central office in Quebec is staffed by two full-time people and sometimes a third person on individual projects.

VEQ's employees and executive director refer all significant issues to the appropriate subcommittees for guidance and direction. Subsequently, the chair of the subcommittee reports all progress back to the board of directors.

We're proud to say that we have an active board of 21 members, with 19 in position now. We have our six meetings a year. The vast majority show up, and they are involved in what we're doing and in giving us feedback.

VEQ's participation in the local English community can be summarized in several ways. First, VEQ provides information referrals to individuals requiring services in English. You've heard a lot this morning from Jim Carter about health and social services. Before that whole area was in place, in the last five years, VEQ has been the starting point for people to ask where they could get English services and how they could be helped.

The referral service attracts a wide clientele, from community groups looking to advertise their services, to anglophone residents looking for specific services in English, to newcomers in the community who require a complete overview of what is offered and where such services are located. One of VEQ's widely used services is our job bank, which lists available jobs in the region that require English language skills.

VEQ is also actively participating in the English-speaking community by organizing social and community events and by serving as a key stakeholder in advocacy concerns. In this regard, VEQ's primary interest is to support the various English institutions that make up the local anglophone community.

The vitality of small communities is directly influenced by the degree to which institutions cater to local needs. Cultural organizations, schools, hospitals, seniors' residences, media outlets, and other social services are all important when considering the role of institutions toward the well-being of a community and, I might add, in helping to create a sense of belonging.

This sense of belonging is what leads me to a second document, what we're calling a conceptual vitality logic model. You will see that it's listed as a QCGN conceptual model. In fact, as a member of the executive, I'm also chair of the community development committee, an initiative within the QCGN. We've been active, and we are working toward answers for the communities in guidance and in help in community development.

The important thing to note is that community development is not an end in itself. Community development is a means to an end. It's one of the pieces of the puzzle. People sometimes think community development is everything. Well, it's part of it, but it's not all in terms of that. So this little grid, of which you should have a copy in English or in French, apart from all the different colours, is just to show you that there are different things.

The situation box on the left shows the decline in vitality in the minority English-speaking communities in the province of Quebec. That is the situation. I think you heard of it this morning. If you look at the two-page handout, you'll see a couple of grids that look at the decrease in the anglophone population in the census from 1991 to 2001. We're pretty sure that the 2005 census is not going to change. On the last page you have some straightforward numbers, anglos leaving the Quebec region, for example. We've been working on that problem, as have most of the organizations within the QCGN.

As you go across the page you'll see the way different aspects will work on the problem. The first blue box is the indication of vitality in all the various areas. You will see that health and social services, in the middle, is only one of the five listed there. Although you've heard a lot about that this morning, there are other areas that are also of great importance.

The big blue box shows QCGN levels of influence--societal, sectoral, community, family, and individual--as you work your way down.

What are the vitality investments? We work through policy development, research, community development, representation, and networking. That's what I meant before about community development being part of the picture; it's not the whole answer.

Who are the beneficiaries? Canadian society, all the way down to individuals in the communities.

The last two boxes show what we are working towards in the short term and long term. In the short term, there's strengthening community participation, developing regional and government participation, increasing sectoral participation, increasing the sense of improvement and sense of belonging, and support for the needs identified by the English-speaking community.

In the long term, some of them continue, of course, this increased sense of community and belonging--this whole concept of vitality, which is in the title of this logic model; increased security, health, and well-being; increased services in English; increased education services; increased employment; and increased levels of cultural activity. I'm sure everybody can agree these are all wonderful things, but they're always spoken of in the sense of making them better, making progress, and that's where we think the vitality can be acted on.

The QCGN works primarily through funding by PCH/Heritage Canada, and that is one of those 25 organizations. We get approximately $150,000 of core funding through that organization. We sometimes get grants of $30,000 or $40,000 for individual projects. We are not limited, as an organization, to only federal funding. We apply for provincial grants from Fonds Jeunesse Québec and other areas as well, because that's just as important for the dossiers we're working on. The key is community vitality, and community development is an important aspect of that in terms of where we're heading.

As one of the typical organizations of the maybe 25 within the QCGN, we're not different from many of the others. We have to give our action plan, strategic plan, a year ahead of time to PCH before it's approved. We're now working on a two-year strategic plan just for our organization. We had meetings with our board. We communicated with our members. We've spent the last two months going out and meeting 200 members of our community in groups of one, two, five, and ten--church groups, social groups, etc.--to get their feedback on their perceptions of VEQ, what they think VEQ should be doing, whether we're on the right track. We bring the results of that to our board and we say this is what we'll be working on next year and the year after--and it's still vitality. The three things in VEQ, as you'll see, are directly tied to stopping the downsizing.

How do we work on that in Quebec? In two ways. We work with newcomers coming into Quebec, especially anglophone newcomers, with Laval University, and a lot of business bringing in people. It's very important to make sure that after two, three, or four years, when they decide if they're going to stay here or go back to Toronto, Calgary, Detroit, Los Angeles.... We need them to want to stay.

The second thing is our youth initiative, working with youth to encourage them in terms of job possibilities. If they go to university, there has to be a desire to want to come back to Quebec because there is something to offer.

The second key element is going to be maintaining and controlling our institutions. I just heard on the radio coming here today that in the Châteauguay area they are talking about closing three English schools. This is the reality all the time in Quebec. Last year in Quebec City, on Base Valcartier, there was a move to close the school and send the kids to the two English schools in the centre of the city. Vets got involved and lobbied because they thought this was important as an institution.

The last thing is simply creating a sense of belonging. Why? Because if you feel that there is a community, and you're part of it, then you think it's important.

Thank you.

10:55 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Thank you, Mr. Donnely.

Now we're going to go to Mr. Riordon from the Quebec Community Groups Network.

November 8th, 2006 / 10:55 a.m.

Peter Riordon Treasurer, Quebec Community Groups Network

Thank you. On behalf of the 25 member groups of the Quebec Community Groups Network, I wish to express our appreciation for the opportunity to put our reality on the record and to thank you specifically for coming to somewhere outside Montreal, although that is an important area too.

The federal action plan and the ongoing support delivered by the Department of Canadian Heritage and some of the other federal ministries provide desperately needed seed funds for important efforts being undertaken by the volunteers of the English community to attempt to rebuild or at least sustain the anglophone community in Quebec.

What are the results? Well, there are some good results. There are some great results that we should all celebrate, and I think we do celebrate them, and we'd like to share them with you.

You heard Jim Carter this morning talking about the field of access to public health care in English, in which Health Canada continues to support a significant program. That preliminary result suggests it's making worthwhile progress. The program is in the middle of a five-year term, and it's to be hoped that support will be continued beyond the first five years. Community development carried out by our member groups is funded by Canadian Heritage primarily, and it is a basic truth that these groups could not generally survive without that assistance. Most groups are making valiant efforts to do their best but with very limited resources and in difficult circumstances. The efforts are appreciated, but the results are not sufficient to conclude that the community enjoys a great deal of vitality, except for a few notable outstanding exceptions.

The recent injection of Canadian Heritage funding through Quebec's education ministry, which was actually quite an achievement given the history of that relationship, will allow for the creation of 15 community learning centres in the English sector. These learning centres are expected to strengthen both communities and their English schools by helping them to more effectively work together. Hopes are high that this model will be productive and that it may lead to replication in the future.

Sectoral groups, apart from the regional groups, are present in the areas of arts, drama, media, rural and agricultural heritage, adult and distance education, and other areas. They all benefit from essential support and buttress the community in useful ways.

I am very proud of the accomplishments of many of these groups who are working with actually very limited resources but are making a difference in their communities. All of this is much appreciated and provides much welcome support for the English community, but if we stand back and take a broader perspective, how is the English community in Quebec doing? I think we've already heard this morning a number of comments about how the English community is doing.

Let's just take a look back. Over the past three and a half decades, more than a quarter of a million English Canadians have left Quebec. The exodus continues. The remaining English population is older than its French cohort because many of those leaving have been the younger and the better educated and the more mobile. The remaining youth are less well-educated and consequently suffer a higher rate of unemployment and lower socio-economic success.

Infrastructure, such as schools, within the English community is aging. We have schools that are a hundred years old. There is no real source of replenishment for the community. Immigration is largely blocked by legislation. The birth rate for this demographic, of course, is very low due to the high mean age of the population.

It is a fact that a thriving English community in Quebec is a valuable asset to both the province and our great country. But realistically, if we stand back and look at what is happening and what the trends are, these trends do not bode well for the survival of this national asset if the present levels of support persist into the future.

The minority French and English populations in Canada are very similar in size, just short of a million each. The reports I get of the francophone minority outside of Quebec give me some encouragement that the support they are receiving is achieving positive results. I celebrate that. We all celebrate it. However, it is time to examine whether Canada wants to maintain a population of anglophones in Quebec or whether it might be more politically expedient to allow us all to emigrate or die out.

I ask you, what does Canada want?

The QCGN, and I and my colleagues, want to keep our great country bilingual and to ensure an ongoing and vital anglophone community in Quebec. Please ensure that we have the tools and the support for success.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Thank you.

We'll now go to the member from the official opposition, Mr. Jean-Claude D'Amours.

You have five minutes, sir, and that includes the answer.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I would like to thank you, Mr. Riordon, for being with us this morning to discuss your situation.

What you said about the exodus of the young population is really not a good thing to hear this morning. A quarter of a million anglophones have left the province of Quebec to go elsewhere. Can you tell me if that exodus is because of the situation with employment, where there's opportunity elsewhere; the lack of infrastructure; or the difficulties involved in staying together in the same area?

11:05 a.m.

Treasurer, Quebec Community Groups Network

Peter Riordon

I think we are all familiar with the history of the past few decades. Certainly, there was a climate in this province that members of the anglophone community were not comfortable with some time ago. I think that is no longer the case. The anglophone community in Quebec now, I know, is not so much worried about the political uncertainty of the future and that sort of thing. But I think you've already heard this morning the reality that the best and the brightest have left.

The youth who are not leaving, those who remain, tend to be less well educated, have lower employability, and low socio-economic success. It's not a bright picture. You've heard from Rachel Garber of Townshippers' some of the interventions in the youth area. The interventions are very positive, but the needs are very large.

I think the demographic that describes the anglophone community in Quebec now is a skewed demographic. It's skewed because of the fact that some of the better educated, more mobile leaders of the community, if you will, are not here. This leaves a deficit, and it creates a greater challenge for those of us who are still here to try to put things together and make them work better.

The other aspect of that, which I think is very evident, is that neither Bob nor I are youngsters. There's a serious shortage of youth leadership in the English sector. We're very delighted to have people like Michael Van Lierop, who was here earlier, as a youth member of the community stepping forward to accept a leadership role. That is tremendously encouraging, but when you look around the table of the Quebec Community Groups Network, you see a lot of gray hair--in fact, sometimes you don't see any hair. In a sense, that's part of society, but it is a more pronounced problem in the anglophone community in Quebec because of the fact that so many....

If you look at the demographic analysis from recent census figures, you will see in the Quebec anglophone community that there is a stressed youth sector here. There is an older population segment, which I probably represent along with Bob, who may have a reasonable education, have careers behind them, and have perhaps retired or are about to retire, and Quebec is home and that's fine; it's a great place to be. But in the middle there's a hole. If you look at the census figures, there's a hole there. Where are the 30- to 50-year-olds in the anglophone community? Well, they live in Calgary or Vancouver or Toronto; they don't live in Quebec. That is a major deficit in our community.

It means that the leaders who should be taking Bob's and my place aren't there. It means that the stronger economic cohort is not there. It creates a serious question mark over the future of our community, and I would hope that the whole question of replenishment of the anglophone community in Quebec can be addressed more constructively in the years to come than has been the case in the years gone by.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Thank you.

Now, Mr. André.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Hello, Mr. Donnely and Mr. Riordon. I'm glad to be here today to talk to you a little bit about what you have been saying about the youth. I am thinking about what you're saying and wondering if....

I often speak with people in industries, manufacturers and employers. Increasingly, the context is the globalization of international trade. If these people want to do business with the United States under the Free Trade Agreement, francophones often have to learn English and anglophones French. We cannot put our head in the sand. We know that English is often the language of international relations.

You're talking about the fact that young people between 30 and 50 were leaving. What I am hearing is these business people have an increasing need for bilingual employees to work in their companies, to do business with foreign countries. English is the second language in China. The same is true of Taiwan and some European countries, but not all.

In my opinion, the Montreal community is organized. The anglophone and francophone communities in Quebec are well organized for social services, health care services and universities. McGill University is a great university. We'll be visiting Bishop's University a little later. There are major infrastructures in place to provide services. And yet we know that these individuals I was speaking about have certain needs with respect to international trade.

Do these young anglophones feel a greater sense of belonging to Canada? It may be easier and more natural for them to go to Ontario than it is for young francophones, who feel a greater sense of belonging to Quebec and the francophonie, because francophones are in the majority in Quebec.

I would like to hear your views on this.

11:10 a.m.

President, Voice of English-Speaking Québec

Robert Donnely

I teach in a public, English-language Cegep in Quebec City that has 1,000 students. It is St. Lawrence Campus of Champlain College, which is located in Lennoxville as well.

The vast majority of our students are francophones who come to do their Cegep in French; that is the choice they make. As you say, people have to be bilingual now when they graduate.

I have been teaching there for 30 years. Clearly, from year-to-year, there are more students who want to go to university outside Quebec City. That means not just Ontario and New Brunswick, but also Montreal. When students leave for three, four or five years, it is difficult to get them back.

Two years ago, in 2004, a study was done of 1,080 secondary IV, secondary V and Cegep students. They were asked how they saw their future. The answers of the 400 English-speaking students were then separated out, but the answers were the same for all respondents: the priority was employment. For anglophones, even in Quebec City, bilingualism was not an asset for finding a job. At least they are not convinced it is. However, the Quebec City Chamber of Commerce always says the opposite, but young people do not seem convinced of this. For their part, francophones associate their university education with the vitality of the community they go to study, as you just said. They wonder whether there will be a future for them in the place they go to study. However, they do have some reasons to come back to their community: friends, a job, family and so on. When a group of friends leave to go to university, they all stick together in their new community. So that is a problem. We do a lot of work with young people to try to organize certain activities to offset the situation, but of course it is a huge job.

Even newcomers help us out a great deal. They could actually replace those that have left. They want to become bilingual, but they also want to remain in Quebec City. We can succeed in keeping and integrating them into our community.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Mr. Lemieux.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you once again for your presentations. I thank you as well, sincerely, for sharing both the successes and the challenges that you're facing. As I mentioned, as MPs we all have the common interest of wanting to know that the federal dollars are actually making a difference in communities in helping you overcome challenges.

I'd like to congratulate you as well on your model. That's an excellent model. I'd like to congratulate you on the work you put into it.

What it tells me is that in measuring vitality, we have to understand what we mean by vitality. We need to know how to tell whether our vitality is increasing or decreasing in order to understand whether we're moving in the right direction or not. So I really appreciate the work you put into that. It's very simple to follow, which is a great challenge, as you know, with any kind of model--making it detailed enough but simple enough.

One of the things I noted was networking. You're saying community associations are a piece of the solution, but not the sole piece. I was looking at networking. I think networking is essential because it's a way for you to understand your priorities among all the different anglophone associations that exist in Quebec and align yourselves among each other to make sure you're working together in the same direction. As well, it's a way for you to share your successes, understand the challenges each of you is facing, and share information. That's probably a key thing; we were talking before this meeting about how there's often a lack of communication, in that we might have a program, but it's not known down at the community level or at the association level.

You mentioned one success that I was very pleased about, the 15 community learning centres. As we've been moving across Canada I've been mentioning this arrangement we've put in place--$1 billion over four years--and you're the first one who has said it's actually showing up here in the community learning centres. Rachel is one who said they know about that and they're working on that. Again, I think that probably happens through networking, through keeping in communication with each other. What can we as a government do in the networking area to help improve networks among yourselves?

Second, you were talking about anglophones leaving Quebec for a variety of different factors, some political and some economic. What can we do as a government to help you retain an anglophone presence in Quebec?

11:15 a.m.

President, Voice of English-Speaking Québec

Robert Donnely

I have a quick comment and then I'll let Peter answer.

The grid, as you'll see at the very bottom in small letters, was actually done by Russ Kueber, who is a member of CHSSN, the Jim Carter group. That's how much we depend on him, and he is an expert in community development. I just want to give him credit for that.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

There's that networking.

11:15 a.m.

President, Voice of English-Speaking Québec

Robert Donnely

Second, you're absolutely right about networking with an organization like the QCGN. People come from Gaspé, from the Maggies, from the lower north shore. We have three meetings a year for two or three days; they're serious meetings.

It's expensive to bring all those people together, but for me the value of networking--although there's a lot more to the meetings than that--is very important.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Treasurer, Quebec Community Groups Network

Peter Riordon

You've touched on some very interesting questions. First of all, the Quebec Community Groups Network is an umbrella group. As Bob has just indicated, we ensure that our members get together several times a year. We don't think we get together often enough. If you want to know why we don't, it's very simple economics. When you bring in somebody from the St. Lawrence north shore and the Magdalen Islands to meet with somebody from the Outaouais and Montreal, it costs about $50,000 a meeting. We don't have the resources to do that very often.

We've just talked about the community learning centres. Part of that program, as you are probably aware, involves equipping those 15 centres with videoconferencing facilities, which are pretty scarce in most of our regions. We are hoping that as that network grows we may be able to have a higher level of face-to-face videoconferencing opportunities in the future.

The fact of the matter is that a great many of our communities are connected by fibre optic broadband facilities--not everywhere. Our school system has had significant encouragement and some support from the province to implement that program, so where we have English schools we have broadband access, for the most part. That means it is feasible to set up videoconferencing centres.

Fifteen centres across the province won't cut it to get our members together, but it's a start. If that program can grow, we may look at a future in which we can talk on a regular basis and share successes, information, programs, and all the good things that happen when we network.

When we ask people what is the greatest value of having a meeting and getting together, my experience over the last 30 years in the community tells me that it's very consistently the opportunity to network with colleagues who are interested in the same thing. That's where we really learn how a problem we're facing was solved and what approach to try. We wouldn't have known about it if we hadn't met one of our colleagues at a meeting who told us what they did and how well it worked. So networking is tremendously important.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

I want to go in the direction of people leaving the area and not coming back. I just want to know your comments.

I think it's a mixture of everything, really. Sometimes we don't know why they leave, but in the world of today, especially here in Canada, they leave to go to university somewhere in a metro area and don't come back. After they've been gone for four or seven years, they don't like to come back. That happens not only here. If you talk to farmers in the prairies where it's all anglophone, people are not coming back to the farms. If you look at home in the peninsula where we have small villages, in one week 70 people left because of the oil rigs in Alberta. They're not coming back--or we hope they're coming back. A lot of that is happening right now.

With the action plan, do you feel that since 2003 you've been getting better tools to equip you to serve anglophones in the community and help them stay or bring them back? Is the action plan better? Are you getting some benefits from it?

11:25 a.m.

Treasurer, Quebec Community Groups Network

Peter Riordon

I would certainly like to speak to the question of the action plan. I applaud loudly the fact that the action plan was brought in. I think it is an imaginative and very positive indication of federal support for minority language communities.

The reality, however, is that with the exception of the health sector, which Jim Carter spoke about this morning, where significant funding from the action plan has come through Health Canada into our community and has I think had a significant impact, elsewhere in other ministries we have not, in effect, had any significant access to the action plan. We have requested assistance to access it.

I have to confess at the same time that the Quebec Community Groups Network is going through a major renaissance right now. We have just hired a new director general, who is filling a gap we've had over the past few months where we've been rather shorthanded. We are engaging some additional staff, who will be addressing community development, research, policy, and so on. This is going to improve our capacity to do some of the things we want to do. But the fact of the matter is that in the first three or four years of the action plan, we've had a very small share of it.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Thank you.

Now we'll go to Mr. D'Amours.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to go back to the question of the action plan.

You have talked a little bit about the good things about the action plan, but if we want to look to the future and make sure your communities are served well, we have to know exactly, or based on your experience, what was not included in the action plan that can help you to build the environment to make sure that each and every anglophone community in Quebec is able to grow. You probably have some idea of things that were not covered in the action plan, or that can be better covered in the action plan.

I want to hear from both of you about that.

11:25 a.m.

Treasurer, Quebec Community Groups Network

Peter Riordon

The action plan is a huge bureaucratic structure with lots of resources, and it's a little bit like the mouse taking on the elephant. We in the Quebec Community Groups Network simply did not have the resources to successfully derive much benefit from the action plan when it was introduced. We were simply too small, without the capacity to approach Ottawa with the information, the applications, and the support to follow through and deliver from the action plan. Our own local infrastructure was just too thin. We believe that we've made significant progress in moving ahead in the direction of building a stronger infrastructure to be able to make better use of some of those resources, and we certainly hope to do so in the future.

The second point I'd like to make is that when there is a program of that nature, it would be extremely constructive, from my perspective, if there were some kind of dialogue with the community prior to implementation of the program, because we would find the whole program a lot easier to access if (a) we had some preliminary knowledge of it, and (b) we had indicated some of the particular priorities that we wanted to see in it that perhaps might have been acceptable to the policy-makers.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

If I heard you well, what you said is you may need some core funding to be able to manage the application form and all those things, and maybe also a little bit of money to be able to do some lobbying to make sure your situation is well known in Ottawa.

11:25 a.m.

Treasurer, Quebec Community Groups Network

Peter Riordon

Lobbying is another issue, and I agree it is an area that we have been quite weak in, primarily I guess for lack of resources. But it's not only lobbying. I would hope that when the government creates a committee that is looking at adopting a new policy, or even after the policy is adopted, a rules and regulations, or whatever, committee can be created that would consult with the community representatives and say, how can this program be best organized to work for you? We didn't have that consultation. The program landed on us like a huge stone, and we just couldn't deal with it initially, just in terms of the numbers.