Evidence of meeting #26 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc-André Larouche  Director general, Réseau des services de santé en français du Moyen-Nord de l'Ontario
Denis Hubert  President, Collège Boréal
Suzanne Roy  Executive Director, ACFO Regional, Community sector development, Association canadienne française de l'Ontario du grand Sudbury

10:20 a.m.

Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.

Jean-Claude D'Amours

And it would also directly affect Francophones you're serving in the region.

Yes.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Good heavens! That's terrible.

I want to come back to literacy. Let's take the example of a mother and father who work and who believe their ability to read and write is adequate. The kids come home after school. One of them has homework to do, and the parent tries to help him as best he can, but because he is illiterate, he has trouble doing that. When the child returns to school, he hasn't had the same opportunity to be helped at home as his classmates. It's a vicious cycle.

A little earlier you confirmed for me that cuts had been made. What will the impact of that be in your communities?

10:20 a.m.

President, Collège Boréal

Denis Hubert

I believe the situation may get even worse because once we fall back into that vicious cycle — I see too many families in that predicament in Northern Ontario — particularly if the economic situation is bad, the generation that follows will be facing even more of a challenge. We have to break that vicious cycle.

In Northern Ontario, there is a tradition, though: people live off the land, or from mining or forestry. In the past, they didn't necessarily need training. But the market has changed —it's a little like the fisheries in Eastern Canada — radically. The people we call Ontario's first generation are not a first generation of new Canadians; they are the first generation not to have access to a post-secondary education. The rate in Northern Ontario is among the highest. We just cannot go on that way. If our youth are unable to write their own name or prepare their own resume, try and imagine what their chances of survival are, either in the trades or any other type of employment. It's an impossible situation.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I want to raise one last argument, because I know my time is quickly running out. We are here to discuss an action plan, among other things. An action plan aims to improve things. But when people at the grass roots take a direct hit, either in terms of literacy, training programs, youth strategies, student employment, or anything else, it's all well and good to have an action plan, but if they pull the rug out from under you, the fact is that you won't be able to achieve very much.

Is that a fair analysis?

10:25 a.m.

President, Collège Boréal

Denis Hubert

Absolutely, and that is the rationale for the linguistic accommodation policy that has just been launched in Ontario.

I'd like to tell you a little story. With 55% of exogamous families in Ontario, only 14% of whom speak French at home. The rather strange burden of having to try to prevent assimilation falls to us, as educational institutions. But we have concluded that as a college, and the same applies to primary and secondary schools — we can no longer limit ourselves to the classroom when it comes to promoting francisation or defending the French language in Ontario. We have implemented what we call the provincial linguistic accommodation policy — I believe it is a Canadian innovation — which will yield results. What is it all about exactly?

Well, here is my little story. For the graduation ceremony at the college, we handed out diplomas to every student at the college along with a work by a Franco-Ontarian author. Everyone of them left with a diploma and a novel — a literary work. I told my students that the diploma would be their passport to employment, and the book, a passport to culture.

We have just signed an agreement with the Théâtre du Nouvel-Ontario. It will be mandatory for my students to receive training at the Théâtre du Nouvel-Ontario. Some of them don't like that, but they're going to have to do it. We have just signed an agreement with local daily newspapers and every single one of my students will have to subscribe to a Francophone daily. I will be using the newspaper in the classroom as a developmental tool. I could go on and on; we have 12 such measures under the linguistic accommodation policy. The fact is that education doesn't only happen at school. We need the associative movement and all our community partners. Otherwise, we will die.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I hope we will have a fourth round.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Thank you, Mr. Hubert.

Ms. Barbot.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

Your comments are extremely interesting in terms of integration. The fact is we have a tendency to see things in isolation and believe that education is something that happens in a college, and that it pretty well stops there. But education has long-term effects. If students are asked to read authors that reflect a certain culture, what they read influences them over the long term.

In Quebec, we have a critical mass, but in a way, that is what allowed us to foster all things cultural, as well as cultural and economic development, and so on.

You probably see Quebec as a role model in that regard. All forms of collaboration are welcome. I believe you are already engaged in some.

The Bloc Québécois is increasingly trying to raise awareness among people in Quebec of the fact that there are Francophones outside Quebec, of the ties that exist between the communities and of the factors that truly transcend politics. Of course, Quebeckers make their own decisions, but we have to keep that responsibility and that connection with Francophones outside Quebec.

There is also the matter of immigration which, in Quebec, plays an important role. Quebec has special agreements with the federal government as regards immigration. I would like to know whether the situation is comparable in Ontario. Can you at least provide some details on the support you receive from Citizenship and Immigration Canada in Sudbury, particularly for Francophone immigrants? Are there linkages there?

10:25 a.m.

President, Collège Boréal

Denis Hubert

We need a land of welcome, and everything has to be built. That is one of the reasons for the plea I made earlier about the $900 million that is pending.

We have to convince immigrants who settle in Ontario to go up north, where job opportunities are available. Approximately 64% of immigrants settle in Toronto. At the present time, there is practically full employment in Sudbury. The mining industry is doing well. We have great jobs for new Canadians, but we cannot do this alone. We need appropriate structures to help immigrants get settled and mechanisms whereby we can recognize the education they received in their own country, so that we can tell them they don't have to start their training all over again, or study the same programs a second time, because we recognize that their certification is valid.

At the present time, we have no supports that would allow us to investigate or analyze the file of an immigrant from another country that we know little or nothing about. How can we more effectively facilitate new Canadians' transition to Canada, to our educational system, for the purposes of completing their education, if need be, and particularly outside Toronto? Toronto and Montreal are not the only places to go. It would be nice to have direct incentives for new Canadians to encourage them to settle in Sudbury, Timmins, Hearst, and so on.

We really do have our work cut out for us in that respect.

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

If I understood you correctly, those linkages do not exist. Canadian Heritage and Citizenship and Immigration Canada are not involved there.

10:30 a.m.

President, Collège Boréal

Denis Hubert

No, they are not.

10:30 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

The communities are telling us that Francophone immigration is absolutely critical for the survival of their communities. I thought a program of that type was already in place. It is really important to establish one.

I think that completes my questions.

10:30 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Thank you very much.

I'm going to move on now to Mr. Petit.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Good morning, Mr. Larouche, Ms. Champagne, Mr. Hubert and Ms. Roy.

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that having been around for some 25 years now, our Committee has come here to meet with you. I am a new member of Parliament; I do not have the experience that the NDP or Liberals have. I don't know how things worked before, but I do want to know certain things, because I have a report to make. We went to see people in Newfoundland and Labrador and Moncton, places that are represented by Mr. D'Amours and Mr. Godin, who are their members of Parliament. We also visited Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Toronto.

One thing attracted my attention in Toronto. You said earlier that you had started on the last page of your report. As Conservatives, we immediately react to a word like “accountability”; that is no secret. So, I certainly support you in that regard. You say in the last sentence of your report that as far as transfers from the federal government to the provincial government are concerned, it is important to specify the exact amounts that are earmarked for official languages.

Now I don't know exactly what went on previously, but it doesn't seem to have worked all that well. So, I would like us to talk about the future and for you to tell me about something that you feel strongly about, such as health care and the ACFO. I would like you to tell us how the federal government can help you. You talked about huge transfers from the federal government to the provincial government. I don't want to talk about issues that are within the provinces' jurisdiction; that is not my role. However, I would like to know, since you are active on the ground, how we could realize what you have in mind. You seem to be intrigued by this, and I am as well. I heard the same thing in Toronto.

10:30 a.m.

President, Collège Boréal

Denis Hubert

Well, I think it could be fairly simple. We basically know what the mandate is in terms of protecting official languages. Whatever the department, whether it's Canadian Heritage, Human Resources Development Canada, Service Canada or another organization, it is important that when the time comes to do something and actually put one's signature on a piece of paper, it be absolutely clear that all the necessary steps have been taken to abide by — based on any possible changes to the context or federal philosophy, or even a change of government — the current policy. In this case, we're talking about language. I see that as absolutely critical.

At the outset, I cited the example of regional offices that were set up in Northern Ontario, where we suddenly realized there was a lack of requirements. As much as possible, I would like to avoid having to call on Mr. Fraser's office. I respect the fact that he has been appointed and I am even proud of that. The fact remains that if his office ceased to exist, we would have accomplished wonderful things in Canada. We wouldn't need this kind of organization anymore. I do hope that I won't have to make use of his office's services and remind people that in Northern Ontario, there are more than 150,000 or 160,000 Francophones. I don't want to be told that someone may be able to speak to me in French.

It's something else when it actually states in the job description of the director of employment programs that the French fact is recognized, just as we recognize it and as the federal government has always recognized it. I'm not saying that everyone in the province has to become bilingual. That is just an example. In the province, we are on the verge of creating a whole series of small offices that will be responsible for employment management, return to work, and so on. It's important to ensure that not only the spirit but the letter of the law are adhered to.

You cannot imagine how hard I have fought, for example, to get brochures in French in some offices. I should not have to ask where the French version of a program is. I have been going through this for the last ten years.

When you sign an LMDA/LMPA or immigration agreement, be sure that the rights of Francophones and minorities are spelled out in every single document passed from one person to the next.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Thank you.

You talked about Sault Ste. Marie. Earlier. I went to Sturgeon Falls about a month ago and was surprised to see that 80% of people were speaking French. I went into stores where they were speaking French. In fact, everywhere I went, people were speaking French. In the spring, I went to Sault Ste. Marie and met with Francophone groups who were wearing a small pin that said “Bonjour”. You saw it, did you not? It's not much, but people suggested that I wear it. When I got to the Sault Ste. Marie airport, a lady came up to me and said “Bonjour, monsieur.” I asked her how she knew that I spoke French, and she said it was because of my pin. That is one way of allowing Francophones to recognize each other.

Also in Sault Ste. Marie, they are in the process of setting up a community centre that will bring together all the different organizations in a single venue. People will be able to know who they are, come together, and feel supported. In fact, because Francophones are scattered here and there, they don't have an opportunity to meet. They don't know one another. Since the City of Sault Ste. Marie declared itself to be unilingual Anglophone, Francophones are almost afraid to speak French. I agree with you in that respect, Mr. Larouche.

The action plan has been in place since 2003. What do you suggest we do, under this plan, to help a community like Sault Ste. Marie to come out of its shell? I certainly don't want to insult anybody, but you yourself said this, Mr. Larouche: people are afraid to speak French. That's terrible.

In Toronto, Ms. Barbot said that we shouldn't talk about Francophone minorities anymore; instead, we should talk about official languages. I agree with you, Mr. Hubert, that the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages should probably no longer exist because we should no longer be coping with this kind of problem. Our country was founded by two peoples: Francophones and Anglophones. If everybody respected those two identities, we wouldn't have this problem and we would probably have better institutions for our young people. They would be interested in attending Francophone institutions just as much as Anglophone ones.

So, what do you suggest that we recommend?

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, ACFO Regional, Community sector development, Association canadienne française de l'Ontario du grand Sudbury

Suzanne Roy

This week, we were told that the Sault Ste. Marie ACFO would have to shut down and that one in Cochrane was in a similar predicament because its financial support and results are inadequate. They do demand results, but in communities such as that, we are unable to move forward. We can barely maintain the status quo, and that's when we're not actually regressing.

People are working relentlessly on the ground. Unfortunately, this is volunteer work, because an organization like ACFO has no chance whatsoever of obtaining adequate core funding to hire qualified personnel, develop projects and implement them. So, we are all working on a volunteer basis, and that is increasingly the way it is. I believe we need financial support, in order to ensure that every organization working in the field has a minimum amount of essential support.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

So, I guess we shouldn't be all that proud of the action plan, which has been in place since 2003. Rather than seeing things improve, grass roots organizations are having to shut down.

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, ACFO Regional, Community sector development, Association canadienne française de l'Ontario du grand Sudbury

Suzanne Roy

Yes, that is absolutely correct. They are being shut down, one after the other. They are being forced to manage themselves as though they were projects, rather than organizations with a community development thrust.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

When did the financial support come to an end?

Last year, and two or even three years ago, funding was provided, was it not?

10:40 a.m.

Executive Director, ACFO Regional, Community sector development, Association canadienne française de l'Ontario du grand Sudbury

Suzanne Roy

The situation over the last three years has hurt us a lot. Core subsidies were cut.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

The Dion action plan — the Liberal plan — suggested that we focus our efforts downstream, as opposed to upstream.

10:40 a.m.

Executive Director, ACFO Regional, Community sector development, Association canadienne française de l'Ontario du grand Sudbury

Suzanne Roy

That plan was conceived at senior government levels, rather than at the grass roots. That is probably the reason why it is problematical.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Ms. Roy, I am certain that Ms. Boucher will be pleased to report that back to her government, so that changes can be made.

Mr. D'Amours.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I agree that it is sometimes necessary to stop looking at what other governments have done. We should be focussing on the future and doing better. And in order to do better, we have to be proactive. I completely agree with the government members in that regard, except that they are talking out of both sides of their mouth. On the one hand, the government says we need to be proactive but, on the other hand, it brings in budget cuts that are a setback and result in our losing everything that we've gained.

It's great to be proactive and focus on the future; in fact, it's absolutely necessary. I don't agree with people who say that Francophone communities are living in the past. That is completely untrue. Mr. Hubert, based on what you said earlier, you are living proof of that. In a way, the 12 initiatives that you mentioned are good deeds.

Do you believe that in future, the government will fund such initiatives? They could be as small as ensuring that our students have access to the local Francophone newspaper. Indeed, what can be better than a newspaper if you want to read and understand your own language? That was only one of the 12 initiatives, or good deeds, that you mentioned.

Ms. Roy said that the federal government does not support the grass roots, which is both disastrous and negative. And yet the government should be providing small amounts of money for the development of initiatives such as yours or those of Ms. Roy — initiatives that directly benefit the communities.

I'm sure a newspaper cannot possibly cost a million dollars per semester. These are small amounts of money, but they foster an incredible vitality. The problem of assimilation that you referred to earlier might not be completely resolved, but it would certainly be partly resolved.