Official Languages Committee on Nov. 10th, 2006

[Denis Hubert]

I would just like to echo your comments. One of my concerns is the scrapping of a budget allocation of $39 million towards the Social Economy Enterprise Development Program, a cut that will have very serious repercussions. This fund made it possible to develop certain initiatives in Ontario. Among our collaborators are the RDEE and the Chambre économique de l'Ontario. Once again, they are part of the associative movement.

When I launch a linguistic accommodation initiative, I receive no money from my province to carry out that kind of activity. We are trying to convince the province to support us. Two ministries are responsible for education in Ontario: the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities. The first one provides funding for this kind of activity, but not the second one.

You're right: these initiatives are not expensive, but I still have to ensure that they are self-financing. For example, I have to go and see merchants or the owner of the newspaper Le Voyageur to negotiate an agreement and ask them to help me, because I don't have much money. It's sad.

Yet investment in these kinds of activities yields absolutely amazing results. It is an investment in our young people's future. The government would not have to spend large amounts of money. I would like to see the federal government create and endorse a policy of linguistic accommodation.

I am neither for nor against anyone. Mr. Gerard Kennedy, the Minister of Education for Ontario, launched a provincial policy which was a success in Ontario and didn't cost much. When a policy turns out to be attractive, why not extend it to the rest of the country? How can we go about doing that?

Because we have no jurisdiction outside the province, we need a kind of national sponsor to support us by giving us $2,000 to buy books, so that we can give a Franco-Ontarian graduate a literary work.

Every time one of my young students reads L'Hebdo, Le Voyageur, La Tribune, or the Timmins Le Soleil , I am encouraging the person who wrote the article. Subsequently, he or she will come to me and ask whether I know any reporters, and if I have a journalism program.

At that point, a process begins that makes it possible to nurture the entrepreneur, to encourage that young person, and that results in a quality product that I will incorporate into my courses. Students do not only read the newspapers; they also have to do the work associated with that.

I also need help to develop an Ontario genealogical project. In fact, starting next year, I am considering including a genealogical component in my courses, because I believe that if you don't know where you're from, you cannot possibly know where you're going.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

But, Mr. Hubert—

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you.

Ms. Barbot.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Already?

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

It's frustrating, because it's so interesting. Everything we're hearing today is interesting. I don't mean in the sense that it is edifying, but—

I would just like to correct my colleague; I'm sure he won't hold this against me. The more I hear our guests speak, the more I realize that they should be called, not lobbyists, but activists, or missionaries.

[Denis Hubert]

Missionaries.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

It's really incredible to see the extent to which your needs are really essential needs — things that the citizens of an organized country would consider to be elementary. You know what you need, and I am stunned to see that what you are lacking, in a developed country such as ours, is the money to meet those basic needs.

Mr. Hubert talked about philosophy at the outset, and I think that is really where the rubber hits the road. There really is no philosophy outside Quebec with respect to developing Francophone communities. In Quebec, we have one because we took matters into our own hands. I won't repeat what I said earlier, but basically, what we have to make the federal government understand is that the French fact is not something that involves only several million individuals; it is a Canadian reality. It is a basic notion in this country, which was founded by two equal communities. And there is the rub.

I hear the Conservatives say that the Liberals did nothing for 13 years. That is the phrase I have heard most often since I was elected. I have only been here since January, and as a result, I am still quite candid. If I can tell you a secret — which isn't really, because you hear this every day on radio and television — it may well be true that the Liberals did nothing for 13 years, but now what exactly are we doing? We're cutting programs. That just doesn't work.

I want you to know that I hear your cry of despair. We will continue to demand, as we already have, that the Court Challenges Program be reinstated, that the budget cuts — not only those affecting Francophones, but particularly those — be cancelled, because you have rights under the Constitution and those rights must be respected. You have to be given the means to develop. In that respect, your message has come through loud and clear.

To have a clear idea of what that represents, Ms. Roy, I would like you to tell me what your organization's annual budget is.

[Suzanne Roy]

We receive our core grant from the Department of Canadian Heritage. The Sudbury ACFO is the richest of all the ACFOs in the province: we receive $40,000. The other associations may receive between about $12,000 and $25,000, and that's about it. With the $40,000 from the Department of Canadian Heritage, we can secure projects and get initiatives going and thus leverage our budget up to $350,000 or $400,000.

The minuscule part of the budget that comes from the department is the part we want to have guaranteed. The magic number we have always suggested is $50,000 per association. That would allow us to hire qualified staff to be able to secure projects, do other things, and move forward.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Because part of that $40,000 that you receive is used solely to find other funding?

[Suzanne Roy]

Yes, exactly.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

I can accept that the ACFO is considered to be a community organization since it has no other form of recognition, but what I find really unfortunate is that your college also has to be a peddler.

[Denis Hubert]

As you say, we often play the role of missionaries; there is no doubt about that. That is part of the job, and when you are Franco-Ontarians living in a minority situation, you simply accept that. It must be the same thing in the East.

It's important to understand how the federal government's support is secured. I was actually talking about this with Ms. Verner recently.

In Timmins, for example, I am trying to put in place the necessary infrastructure to provide training in French in the trades. Timmins is a city that is growing, or continuing to grow. At the present time, I have no facilities there. Everyone believes that this project will be a real challenge.

There is one way of obtaining assistance that worked in the past. That was when the federal government would say to the provincial government — I witnessed this when I was at the Cité collégiale, and I've also witnessed it here, at the Collège Boréal — that it believes in training trades people, that this makes sense, and that it might be prepared to invest in an apprenticeship fund. So we go and talk to officials at the provincial level, we apply some pressure, and the provincial government tells us that if we develop a project for the trades, the federal government might be willing to support it. I say “the trades”, but that could include the health care sector or something else. It worked in the past, because all of a sudden the provincial government reacted, saying that because the federal government was there to provide support, it, too, would do something.

That's the kind of situation we are trying to reproduce in Timmins at the present time, in cooperation with Ms. Verner, so that we can secure support for a project aimed at training at least 400 apprentices per year in Northern Ontario in the mines sector, as well as others.

This is a solution that allows each level of government to take some of the credit. So, it is worth being persistent.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. Lemieux, please.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much. I would just like to put my colleague's comments about the cuts in perspective. He talked about an $11 million student exchange program. That kind of program is really important. We would like to do a lot of good things. However, just as you do in each of your own organizations, we need to set priorities.

When we travel across the country, everyone tells us — the ACFO and the other associations in my riding say the same thing — that we have to solve the problems here in Canada. That is the priority. We need a better health care system for Francophones who live here, in Canada. It's the same thing for education.

Mr. D'Amours neglected to mention a few facts. In 2004 and 2005, the Ontario Government invested $48 million in education for the linguistic minority in Ontario. That is a lot of money. Mr. D'Amours also neglected to say that there is a $1 billion federal-provincial agreement — you did mention it; thank you for that — which will be in effect until 2009. Those are important initiatives. When we focus our efforts, we are able to achieve real results. We see this in the health and education sectors. If cuts are being made, it is to allow us to focus our efforts in areas that are evolving in a positive manner.

We went to Moncton and, at the University of Moncton, we were told about the program to train physicians in French. That is terrific, because we focussed our efforts. And I'd like to talk about the efforts being made in these areas.

With respect to the communities, we have spent $64 million improving services. We signed a $120 million agreement for the communities.

Ms. Roy, how do you know which organizations in Sudbury and Northern Ontario are receiving money and implementing programs that work? It's a real challenge to find out how associations are delivering services in Northern Ontario. How do you go about exchanging information, in order to know what is working?

[Suzanne Roy]

The vast majority of this information goes through the Association des francophones de l'Ontario, or AFO, a provincial organization representing a variety of sectors and regions. That is where information exchange occurs. A committee looks at the agreements. They can then tell us who is doing what and who has what, and pass on the results. But as far as disseminating that information is concerned, there is no real mechanism in place for that to occur.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

As far as I am concerned, it's important for the associations to be sharing information about their successes, because that motivates people, and we know that we all have an interest in protecting our heritage.

[Suzanne Roy]

The regional ACFOs are trying to consolidate in order to ensure closer cooperation. Earlier, I was saying that our sector is not well structured. In addition, no funding is provided for this kind of structure, where we could talk about successes achieved elsewhere and work together. We are strictly in survival mode. It's a little difficult for us now to even think about getting that far.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Earlier, Mr. D'Amours' question was addressed to both of you, but only Mr. Hubert answered. The question suggested that, since the official languages action plan was implemented, what the ACFO has lost can now be found in the organizations and institutions. But that is not what I understood Mr. Hubert to say. Mr. Larouche seemed to be suggesting the same thing, saying that what was needed was an organization on the ground. With $10,000, you can't even turn around. At the current price, you can barely afford to put gas in the car.

I would like each of you to briefly comment on that. With the official languages action plan, do we still need local organizations on the ground? Is that important? If so, why is it important? What should the government be doing to support those organizations on the ground if we want this to work?

Mr. Larouche, could you give me your opinion on that?

[Marc-André Larouche]

This is my opinion. As I said earlier, the grass roots is essential. Without it, our network would not exist. As I was saying, it's fine to have money — even the $14 million — but our money comes in dribs and drabs. Often the expenditures were made a long time before that and the money has not yet come in. We would not even be in a position to balance our budget. We have this assistance as a result of a partnership with a community organization. What is really needed is for funding to be given directly to the community organization.

We are also seeing similar situations in the health care sector. We have to change structures that have been in place for ages, and we simply can't do that with a three-month project.

For example, a year and a half ago, funding of $10 million was announced, and a year and a half later, we received the money. That amounts to about $6 million across Canada, for a project that was supposed to last one year, in order to implement plans that we had developed. As it turns out, for reasons known only to the Treasury Board, the project will only last three months. If that's the way it's going to be, fine, but in three months—

That is, to a large extent, the way we work. It always comes down to small projects, and we want results. And there is that slight paranoia associated with results, and so on, but we have to—

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Focus on the long term, and not just the short term.

[Marc-André Larouche]

Yes, we have to think, and we have to understand the situation. We cannot change mentalities and make this happen by focussing only on numbers. This is very harmful to community organizations and it actually has a pernicious effect — which is to try and get the answer that you want to get, when that simply isn't feasible. We have to stay honest.

Under a revised action plan, we need to have that openness, that understanding, and get away from the paranoia of total control, which ultimately smothers and suffocates us.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hubert, do you want to add anything?

[Denis Hubert]

Yes. I fully endorse those comments. By way of preamble, I would like to say this. This morning, we are talking. I wouldn't say we are complaining, but we seem to be raising issues. But the fact is the federal government has carried out some important work in recent years. I would even go so far as to say that if the federal government had not been there for people living in a minority situation, I am not sure I would be here today. In fact, I am quite certain that I would not be here, whatever government was in office, because I have seen all of them, one after the other. I'm not sure that we would exist.

So, the federal government is essential. We cannot leave the survival of minorities up to the provinces alone. That's my first point.

My second point is this: that means a federal action plan and, out of the federal action plan, a provincial agreement, and thus accountability, to ensure that the parameters that are set are adhered to. I agree with that way of working. As for the associative movement, if the minorities don't have that to back them up, they will simply die.

I would refer you again to the book by Graham Fraser entitled Sorry, I don't speak French where he points out the importance of the Ordre de Jacques-Cartier that existed here. All the associative organizations that have existed in Ontario have meant that I am still speaking French 300 years later.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you, Mr. Hubert.

Ms. Roy.