Official Languages Committee on Feb. 27th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you, Minister. I'll have to stop you there.

Mr. Malo, please go ahead and ask the next question.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for coming today.

Everybody around this table agrees that the transformation under way is a major one. The fact that you agreed to appear before us on such short notice is evidence of this. On that note, Minister, I would like to quote a passage of your opening statement:

Counting on my support, my colleagues ensure that the institutions for which they are responsible fully comply with the Official Languages Act. They are accountable before Parliament, they consult with communities [...]

I'd like to know, Minister O'Connor, with which communities you consulted before you brought forward these reforms.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

I'm going to ask Colonel Milot to answer that, since he developed the detailed plan.

Colonel.

[Col J.L. Milot]

The transformation model was developed based on the minister's office's recommendations, including recommendations which came as a result of complaints we received.

The approach adopted with respect to some communities caused a number of incidents over the recent years. The recommendations which came as a result of this can certainly be found in our Official Languages Program Transformation Model. I'm referring here to part VII of the act, which is a major section and which is now justicible.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

No community was expressly consulted before the model was developed.

[Col J.L. Milot]

No.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Ms. Boucher said that you were demanding, Ms. Verner. Don't you think you haven't been particular enough? Did you ask your colleague to conduct broader consultations with francophone communities before moving ahead on this proposal?

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

As Colonel Milot just pointed out, there were a number of incidents over which complaints were made to the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages. These complaints came from people from various communities throughout Canada, and the commissioner's recommendations were then implemented. In this sense, we took into account the complaints made by communities.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you very much.

Minister, you stated, and you used figures to back you up, that francophones were very well represented throughout the Canadian Forces. But the more relevant statistics would be in relation to the number of francophones who are able to use French on a daily basis as their language of work.

Do you have any figures on that? I think that kind of data is important as it would paint a more accurate picture of the situation francophones face in the Canadian Forces.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

I'll attempt to get you those statistics.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Excellent.

Minister Verner, have you previously been a member of the Canadian armed forces?

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

No. Unfortunately, I was never a member.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Do you know how the language system within the Canadian armed forces works?

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

It's important to remind people of my role. My role is not to be a member of the Canadian armed forces, but rather to ensure that my ministerial counterparts comply with the Official Languages Act. And in that regard, my colleague Mr. O'Connor has assured me, as have all my colleagues—

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

So you have a firm grasp of what your colleague is trying to achieve.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Absolutely. His objective is to comply with the act.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you.

The minister has just contradicted Mr. Lemieux who said that because we have never been in the Canadian armed forces we're not in a position to fully understand how the language system works within the Canadian armed forces.

I'd simply remind him that just because you haven't been a member of the Canadian armed forces does not mean you're not able to understand the situation. But the way that you've understood the situation is very clear. You are driven by an extremely partisan and highly conservative ideology.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'll stop there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you, Mr. Malo.

I'd ask Mr. Godin from the NDP to ask a final question.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to congratulate you, Ms. Verner, for having admitted that the former government didn't do a good job. That's why a number of reports have been released. You were right to say what you said, because we have been fighting for official languages for years.

However, I can't congratulate you for the fact that your government axed the Court Challenges Program, which gave minorities an opportunity to defend themselves. Instead, the government's attitude has been to say that it doesn't see why it would give money to people who would use this money to fight the government.

I've already said in the House of Commons that the government shouldn't use taxpayers' money to appeal any ruling in favour of an everyday Canadian. Why would you use taxpayers' money to appeal decisions in favour of Canadians?

Over the course of our national tour, we consulted people from all regions about the program. We weren't there to hear people's complaints, but rather to consult them. Everybody agreed that scrapping the Court Challenges Program hurt bilingualism in Canada.

You say that the transformation model will provide results. What mechanism has been established to measure these results? You've given yourselves up until 2011. Mr. Milot said that you'd have a model by the end of 2007, but that it was already producing results. What mechanisms do you currently have in place producing these results?

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

As you know, the issue of the Court Challenges Program is currently before the courts. So I won't comment on that. As far as measures—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

It's before the courts because you have taken taxpayers' money and used it against them.

Mr. O'Connor.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

Benchmarks will be set within the armed forces on what will be achieved in all the different categories. They will be measured each year, and a public report of our achievements will be made each year.

Mr. Godin, we are starting to implement the transformation model on April 1. We haven't implemented it yet. We're starting now.

In the past—and I'm not going into the political realms of the past, but failure after failure after failure over decades—We are trying to break that approach. We are trying to get to a plan that will actually achieve what the Official Languages Act calls for.

We are on your side. I know you keep attacking us as if we're working against you, but we're not.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You're doing what you were doing when you were in the opposition and you were doing a good job.

What I'm saying is, if you go to being functional instead of universal, where is section 7 of the Official Languages Act, and where are sections 41, 42, 43? Where do you want to make the promotion of bilingualism? By moving from universal to functional, automatically you're telling people they don't have to do it any more. You're telling the kids in school they don't have to learn the two languages, because the government has a spot for them.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

We cannot achieve the universal within the Canadian Forces. We cannot get everybody to a bilingual level. It's the way the armed forces operate. We cannot leave people in locations for decades in either an English zone or a French zone. We cannot get them bilingual. We cannot do the entire armed forces.

What we're trying to do is meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act. By the way, the Official Languages Act does not demand that everybody in Canada be bilingual.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Don't you think there is a disadvantage when you look at it? Eighty-nine percent of francophones are bilingual, and of the anglophones, only 11%, which means the francophones, to go up in the ranks, have to be bilingual.