Official Languages Committee on June 6th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

Based on your comments, Ms. Barbot, I'll make sure that I ask my questions in English, so I don't....

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

I didn't mean to stop you from speaking French here, not at all. We're all the same here. I don't mind.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

All right.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

It's not really what I meant.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

One of the questions I have, and I'm a bit fascinated—maybe out of a bit of understanding or the research I've done—at the whole aspect of horizontal governance and I guess what I would describe as the.... When the whole concept of horizontal governance came into action—whether in the private sector and then leading into the public sector—there was a feeling that by flatlining and moving in that direction, it would a lot more all-encompassing, a lot more of a process in which employees and employers could actually work together and drive the companies to greater heights, both internally and externally. The difficulty with this was that the practice worked extremely well in theory, but not in practice.

So when I look at your recommendation in terms of ensuring the effectiveness of the horizontal governance mechanisms of Canada's linguistic policy, I wonder (a) how that would work from a practical perspective, and (b) the one thing that would be beneficial is if we were able to measure those outcomes...and whether we would set standards to meet those outcomes and therefore have something to actually measure them against.

I'm wondering if you could comment on both of those questions.

[Dyane Adam]

First, I think we need to define what horizontal governance is, because in my annual report we have a whole chapter on that. We did publish other works in this area and we also reviewed existing work. What we found is that there are different definitions. So this is a problem.

We gave ourselves a definition. What we mean by that is not necessarily that you manage a company or a department together. What we mean by horizontal governance of official languages refers to the mechanism put in place to ensure ongoing cooperation among departments.

Let's talk about the federal institutions themselves. This is a horizontal file. It's not about transport; it's not about heritage. It goes across all those departments—and how, as a government, will you achieve a consistent approach and really focus on results?—and then evidently, between departments and civil society.

We already have concrete examples of horizontal mechanisms in place. For example, in the area of health, there are proven mechanisms. In that area, there are two committees—community and departmental—that focus on the issue, develop a plan, address the priorities, and together they more or less develop a plan of action, allocate resources, and assess the results.

I could go on. In immigration we have the same thing. This type of cooperation between communities, the stakeholders, and the government has allowed, for example, the federal government to sign agreements with the provinces with linguistic clauses that take into account the specificity of the official language minority communities.

Since the federal government was tuned in on the communities, it was easier for the government to also establish a dialogue with the provinces on those communities. The same thing happened with the early childhood file.

So I think that is the mechanism we are pushing for and the results at which we are aiming.

Have I answered your question?

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I think partially. I think in terms of the point about the measurements, or the results, that you speak about, maybe I'd tie in the word “effectiveness” and just trying to define.... I see it as more of a statement than necessarily an action.

[Dyane Adam]

No, it's real.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

And I wondered how to transfer that. With the word “effectiveness”, it's very difficult to measure what effectiveness means. To me, what you think is effective and what I think is effective are different things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

I'm going to have to ask you to respond very quickly.

[Dyane Adam]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Time goes quickly even in English.

[Dyane Adam]

Yes.

Effectiveness is about achieving results, so if the results you're aiming at in this case are that you want to increase and support the vitality of official languages communities, for example, you need indicators. This is one thing we have. You need to establish indicators of how you will measure the vitality. Anyone who is an expert in development will tell you.... Take, for example, economic development. I do not see the federal government pushing for economic development in any community in Canada without the communities themselves. You know that. They will take the time to bring these communities on board, and the people who have the businesses. If they do not, it won't be effective, I can tell you, because they'll face major resistance. Second, they're not likely to make the best decisions, and you will have to repair rather than move forward. That, for me, is effectiveness.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Thank you.

Mr. Godin, for a third round of questions.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

My last question is for you, Ms. Adam. I would like to have an honest and sincere answer, although obviously I know that you are always honest and sincere.

In February 2006 the administrative support structure for the minister responsible for official languages was moved from the Privy Council Office to the Department of Canadian Heritage.

[Dyane Adam]

That is correct.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Do you have any concerns about this transfer of responsibility? The government felt it was important to transfer this authority from the Privy Council Office to the Department of Canadian Heritage. In theory, the two departments rank equally in the government hierarchy, but which one has decision-making powers? Which one holds the purse strings? The authority seems to have been downgraded to a lower rank. I would like to hear your opinion on the matter.

[Dyane Adam]

I mentioned this matter earlier. I do have concerns and let me tell you why.

Prior to 2001 there was no minister responsible for official languages. The position was created in response to some of my recommendations and those made by other groups. It was felt that a minister was required as official languages concerns all departments; we established that there was a need for a champion or a leader, who would coordinate and ensure, be it by stick or by carrot, that departments respected their obligations. In addition, we felt that it was incumbent upon the government, through a group of deputy ministers and a group of ministers responsible for official languages, to exercise this responsibility.

The minister responsible for official languages was not mandated to ensure service delivery. He had a more objective role, offering an outsider's perspective. Now, however, the minister responsible for official languages is responsible for official language program delivery — and these programs are major Canadian Heritage programs, — while also receiving support services from the Deputy Minister for Canadian Heritage.

I know few people who would be able to maintain independence when asked, as this minister has been asked, to defend his or her department and provide services while simultaneously acting as a critic of the department. Such a situation creates a problem. Even if there are two distinct structures, it does not change the fact that they are operating under the same deputy minister and the same two assistant deputy ministers.

How can they send out an independent message to the federal government? I feel that such a situation could lead to confusion and conflict of roles and responsibilities. When such a situation occurs within an organization — and we have all been members of organizations —, the result is stagnation. We are running the risk of stagnation. More time will be spent on clarification and on getting the message across than on real action.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

Have you finished your question, Mr. Godin?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Are you saying that time slows down for Acadians?

[The Chair, Conservative, Guy Lauzon]

It is just that Mr. Simard would like to use the remainder of your time to ask a brief question.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

In fact, Mr. Chair, I was going to speak about horizontal management. Mr. Dykstra brought it up, and I think it's a very good point. Maybe an example I can give in St. Boniface is that Health Canada financed the

Centre de santé de Saint-Boniface.

They have just established the best system in Canada, in that they ensure that you will have a doctor's appointment within two days. It's unseen anywhere else in the country, and it's being copied. The Minister of Health in Manitoba is stunned by what they've done. They're very small but very focused. It is working very well.

I would like to ask two brief questions.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

The NDP...